Definition Process vs. Activity - What are the differences between a Process and an Activity?

S

Sam4Quality

#11
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences?

While many posters have answered your query appropriately, here my :2cents:,

Input + Set of Activities + Output = PROCESS

So, from the above equation, it is clear that activities form part of a process. Activities DO NOT have an input or an output, they are just tasks performed as part of a process.

For Activities, you should ask What
For Processes, you should ask Why, What, How, Who, When and Where (5 Wives and 1 Husband) ;)

Ciao. :cool:
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#12
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences?

As of today, the original post (OP?) was the first and the only post by it's author who has disappeared from Cove 3+ years ago. As far as I can tell, this question did not get a satisfactory answer...

For me, a novice, this question is still very interesting.

I've RTFMed all I could find about processes and process approach (ISO's definitions and guidelines, numerous posts at Cove, etc.). I've heard that these concepts were being used in practice yet before ISO 9xxxx has "adopted" them. But... the task of "process identification" still feels rather like an exercise in black magic for me...

Could anybody please try to shed some additional light on this topic these days?

Perhaps, it would make sense to re-formulate the question slightly:
What criteria/heuristics/rules-of-thumb do you use to decide what set of activities "deserves" to be declared to be a Process (with all known consequences dictated by "process approach" in general and by ISO 9001:2008 in particular)?
Thank you,
Yarik.
I think that trying to find a distinction between "process" and "activity" will ultimately be futile because it's a false dichotomy. Don't conflate the container (what something's called) with its contents (the stuff that actually matters).

In what used to be called "data processing" and is now referred to generally as "information technology," there is the simple concept of the IPO (Input-Process-Output) cycle. Some sort of input material is processed (somehow transformed) into the desired output (a product). Although the middle part of IPO is "process," the whole thing is a process. In the first instance (the "P" in IPO) "process" is a verb, while in the second it's a noun. When the verb form is used, "process" denotes activity.

The best way to think about in ISO terms is similar to the IT concept--input is transformed into output. In a manufacturing process, raw material is transformed (processed) into a product. In each situation identification of important processes and invoking controls--such that the output is acceptably predictable--is the key to the process approach.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#13
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences?

While many posters have answered your query appropriately, here my :2cents:,

Input + Set of Activities + Output = PROCESS

So, from the above equation, it is clear that activities form part of a process. Activities DO NOT have an input or an output, they are just tasks performed as part of a process.
I take issue with the idea that "activities" (as you define it) never have inputs and outputs. There are sub-processes that do indeed have inputs and outputs. A good example is a manufacturing cell, where two or more "activities" are taking place--each with their own inputs and outputs-- but where what goes on in the cell as a whole is properly described as a "process." Rather than wasting a lot of time trying to give things names, concentrate on what needs to be controlled in order to achieve the desired outcome.
 
S

Sam4Quality

#14
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences between a Process and an Activity

Originally Posted by Jim Wynne



I think that trying to find a distinction between "process" and "activity" will ultimately be futile because it's a false dichotomy. Don't conflate the container (what something's called) with its contents (the stuff that actually matters).

In what used to be called "data processing" and is now referred to generally as "information technology," there is the simple concept of the IPO (Input-Process-Output) cycle. Some sort of input material is processed (somehow transformed) into the desired output (a product). Although the middle part of IPO is "process," the whole thing is a process. In the first instance (the "P" in IPO) "process" is a verb, while in the second it's a noun. When the verb form is used, "process" denotes activity.

The best way to think about in ISO terms is similar to the IT concept--input is transformed into output. In a manufacturing process, raw material is transformed (processed) into a product. In each situation identification of important processes and invoking controls--such that the output is acceptably predictable--is the key to the process approach.
Originally Posted by Jim Wynne


I take issue with the idea that "activities" (as you define it) never have inputs and outputs. There are sub-processes that do indeed have inputs and outputs. A good example is a manufacturing cell, where two or more "activities" are taking place--each with their own inputs and outputs-- but where what goes on in the cell as a whole is properly described as a "process." Rather than wasting a lot of time trying to give things names, concentrate on what needs to be controlled in order to achieve the desired outcome.
Sir, I agree that we shouldn't waste time on naming things as you mentioned, however, I think I just would like to put forth my reasoning for a distinction between activity and process, moreso for clarification as well as to justify the OP's request.
Allow me to state Clause 3.4.1 of ISO 9000 - A process is a "Set of interrelated or interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs".

The PROCESS of "Quenching my thirst" involves an input of being thirsty, a set of ACTIVITIES (pick the glass-->fill the glass with water-->drink the water) and an output, i.e., quenched thirst. Resources required were water, glass, hands etc. Now if you say that 'pick the glass' is a process, I would say no, it is simply an activity. Now add the reason of "pick the glass" (input), resources (glass, hands etc), activity (pick the glass) and the output (picked glass) ===> PROCESS.

A process is like an ATOM (the smallest matter) with electrons, protons, neutrons (Activities)
connected to each other by electromagnetic forces (interrelated/interacting activities)
A set of these atoms (sub-processes) forms a molecule (bigger process)
A set of interacting molecules form the solid, liquid or gas (system)

Also, an activity may itself be an input OR an output, but does not have an input or an output of its own.

I would'nt want to argue any further as I realize that its just a matter of understanding, and ofcourse as you mentioned, concentrate on what needs to be controlled in order to achieve the desired outcome.

Ciao. :cool:


 

Chennaiite

Never-say-die
Trusted Information Resource
#15
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences between a Process and an Activity

Let's speak 'life' for understanding.
Now, Preparing tea is a process..is it so?
OK, if yes (normally)
Milk, tea powder are the input
Burner, fuel, cook, container are the resources required.
Tea is ofcourse the output
Activities are: Taking required milk in a container.....placing it on the burner.....switching-on the burner.....adding some water........dropping some tea powder....waiting for the solution to boil.....blaw blaw

Appears to be OK. But...taking required milk in a container is an activity or a sub-process?
It is an activity because it does n't convert any input, neither the milk not the tea powder, into any output..
Thanks.
 
Y

Yarik

#16
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences?

Hi Jim!

I think that trying to find a distinction between "process" and "activity" will ultimately be futile because it's a false dichotomy. Don't conflate the container (what something's called) with its contents (the stuff that actually matters).
Hmm... I feel somewhat confused by this...

One one hand, I believe that technically (that is, by applying ISO's definitions per se) any activity can be considered to be a process and vice versa; therefore, "process vs. activity" indeed is a false dichotomy. (Unless I misunderstand the word "dichotomy". :eek:) That's why I changed the OP's question...

On the other hand, I don't understand your note about "conflating containers and their contents". What did you mean by "container" and "contents" here?

In what used to be called "data processing" and is now referred to generally as "information technology," there is the simple concept of the IPO (Input-Process-Output) cycle. Some sort of input material is processed (somehow transformed) into the desired output (a product). Although the middle part of IPO is "process," the whole thing is a process. In the first instance (the "P" in IPO) "process" is a verb, while in the second it's a noun. When the verb form is used, "process" denotes activity.

The best way to think about in ISO terms is similar to the IT concept--input is transformed into output. In a manufacturing process, raw material is transformed (processed) into a product.
I think you are right. The ISO's definition of process does feel very similar to this simplistic Input-Process-Output concept.



I wish it was a little bit more compex, though. For example, this simplistic definition is mute about temporal aspects of processes. I mean questions like these:
  • Is availability of input sufficient for actual processing of this input to begin?
  • If a process has multiple inputs, does it mean that actual processing of those inputs begins only when they all are available?
  • If a process has mutliple outputs, does it mean that they become available simultaneously?
  • ...and so on, and so forth...
In other words, I think one big part of my confusion is this: Does the ISO's "process approach" sorely lack such concepts as, for instance, process execution triggers? Or is this omission intentional? In the latter case, what was the intent and what are the answers on the "temporal questions" like the ones listed above?

I think these temporal aspects are quite important part of the picture if the concept of "process" is expected to be applied to situations more complex than trivial assembly line (i.e. a trivial chain of processes where inputs of each process do trigger execution of that process).

Or I am missing/overthinking something? (Which, of course, is totally possible.)

For example, I do understand that all those questions about temporal aspects can be answered for a particular process by looking inside the process - i.e. by looking at the actual activities behind this process. But... is this really a viable approach? I mean, wasn't one of the key points of the "process approach" to describe interfaces of processes (inputs, outputs, resources, goals, etc.) not only to guide effective implementations of those processes but also to facilitate management of the entire system - where interactions of the processes are not a single bit less important than each individual process?

In each situation identification of important processes and invoking controls--such that the output is acceptably predictable--is the key to the process approach.
Well, I am not sure what do you mean by "importance", but identification of processes that are useful from the management viewpoint is exactly what my question (not OP) was about. Technically, any arbitrary set of activities can be declared to be a process. However, not every technically possible set of activities is useful for management purposes. So the question is: how do you arrive at those sets of activities that, once declared to be processes and then managed as processes, would help to manage the entire system in effective and efficient manner?

So far, the answers that I found at Cove (and elsewhere) boil down to something like this:
(1 - Plan) Find the set of activities that looks like a possible useful process to you. Declare this set of activities a process.

(2 - Do) Try to live with this newly defined process for some time.

(3 - Study) Analyze whether this process was useful from the management viewpoint.

(4 - Act) If it was useful, institutionalize this process. Otherwise, remove debris (if any) and go start the next PDSA cycle.

NOTE: If you want more specific advice on how exactly the Plan and Study steps are conducted... well, tough luck! Go get an MBA or something! ;)
Which, of course, would be a totally fair way to answer my question. :cool:

Thank you,
Yarik.
 
Y

Yarik

#17
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences?

While many posters have answered your query appropriately...
I don't think so. The question from original post - maybe. But I changed the original question slightly (because, like Jim, I believe that distinction between process and activity is not a useful question)...

...here my :2cents:,

Input + Set of Activities + Output = PROCESS

So, from the above equation, it is clear that activities form part of a process. Activities DO NOT have an input or an output, they are just tasks performed as part of a process.
Are you saying that tasks cannot have meaningful inputs/outputs of their own and cannot be dissected further into some subtasks/subactivities?
I can't agree with that. They always have inputs/outputs/purpose and almost always can be broken down into smaller tasks. The real question is: is it useful to define those inputs/outputs and/or subtasks or not?
NB: I do agree that, in the real world, some activities can be considered indivisible - like dropping an outgoing letter into USPS maibox or giving a verbal order (i.e. actually saying it) to a subordinate - but it does not mean that those activities do not have inputs, outputs, or goals/purposes that might be important in a given context.
For Activities, you should ask What
For Processes, you should ask Why, What, How, Who, When and Where (5 Wives and 1 Husband) ;)
Hmm... Do you mean that I should not ask why, how, who, when, and where for an activity?? Okay, but why shouldn't I?

Maybe it's just me, but all those what-vs-hows arguments often are more confusing than helpful. My primary field, software development, was - and still is - plagued by such arguments when people discuss requirements-vs.-implementation, design-vs.-development, interface-vs.-realization, and God knows what else. And that's one of the main reasons (IMHO) why many of those arguments remain unresolved and contribute a heluva lot to notoriously poor quality of software coming from an "average" vendor.

Something's "what" is always something else's "how", and vice versa. And everything that happens is supposed to have its "5 wives and 1 husband" (otherwise, what's the point of its happening in the first place?). So how can applicability of these 5W1H questions be used to define anything?

Thank you,
Yarik.
 

Peter Fraser

Trusted Information Resource
#18
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences?

I don't think so. The question from original post - maybe. But I changed the original question slightly (because, like Jim, I believe that distinction between process and activity is not a useful question)...
I missed most of this thread when I was in Norway last week, and I was planning to wait until tomorrow evening when David Hoyle is speaking to the local branch of the CQI here in Aberdeen, because I intend to compare notes with him then, but I feel that Yarik needs someone to agree with him...!

I would suggest an alternative to the “traditional” definition of a process (“a set of interrelated or interacting activities which transforms inputs into outputs”), as:
"a sequence of related tasks triggered by an event and intended to achieve an objective. It uses resources and is subject to influences".

The "event" can be an action / a thought / a decision / a diary date - so a process can be reactive (responsive) or proactive. For example:
• “Responding to a Sales Enquiry”
• “Recruiting Staff”
• “Holding a Management Review Meeting”.

This definition works as well at the organisational level (“running the business”) as it does for an individual process. Clarity of the “mission” is essential to ensure that everyone within the organisation is working towards the same ends. Resources must be made available, whether physical, information or (competent) people.

It also avoids the risk that artificial “transformations” will be invented (as often happens) to fit the “traditional” definition, and that “inputs” such as "methodologies" and "templates" and even “staff” are allegedly “transformed”, when they will patently still exist (and be required) the next time the process is followed.

Most people don’t go to work to “do transformations” – they have an objective to accomplish, or at least they will respond to events as they happen.

Thinking in “process” terms can be beneficial in many situations, and the logic can apply equally well at the task level. A task can be defined as:
• “a discrete activity or piece of work”
• “the smallest essential part of a job”.

A task is started when something triggers it; there is an objective to be achieved (otherwise why do it?) and it will almost certainly require resources and be subject to a variety of influencing factors.

In many cases, completion of one task in a process may trigger the start of the next task. The outcomes from a process may be the aggregate of the outcomes from individual tasks. And the objectives of a task should always be aligned with the aims of the process, and each task should contribute to the creation of the “output”.

And finally: even if there are "inputs" into a process and "outputs" out of it (which I agree there will be, but it does not help to make them part of the definition, since they are characteristics or elements of a process - but equally of a task / action / activity), they do not all go in at the start of the process, or all come out at the end.

They go into and come out of the various tasks which make up the process. In the same way, resources may be required for specific tasks rather than for the entire process, and factors may influence individual tasks rather than the entire process.

Processes, sub-processes and tasks (activities) are like Russian dolls - pick one up and you don't know where it fits. It may look big (or small) to you, but that will depend on where you are in the organisation and how much you "see" of the overall system.

[See Module 4.1 of the CQI Body of Quality Knowledge for more detail]
 
J

JaneB

#19
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences?

I missed most of this thread when I was in Norway last week.
Ah ha, all is explained. I was thinking you'd been unaccountably silent :lol:

Most people don’t go to work to “do transformations”
Nope, they sure don't!

Processes, sub-processes and tasks (activities) are like Russian dolls - pick one up and you don't know where it fits. It may look big (or small) to you, but that will depend on where you are in the organisation and how much you "see" of the overall system.
Yes, this is a critical point. So fundamental and so critical that those of us who are well accustomed to thinking process/sub-process/system etc can sometimes overlook the fact that there are others among us who aren't and don't.

Good points, Peter. Hope Norway was good to you.
 
J

JaneB

#20
Re: Process vs. Activity - What are the differences between a Process and an Activity

Instead of talking in terms of 'quenching thirst' or 'making tea' (is it just me, or are all you guys overly focussed on drinking?), can I suggest we talk in terms of better examples? Some in a management systems context, say, such as recruiting, or performance reviews or selling or quoting...

... rather than this domestic trivia which in my opinion are barely even worthy of dignifying with the name 'process'.
 
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