Definition Product Audit (8.2.2.3) vs. Layout Inspection (8.2.4.1) - What are the differences?

S

Sushil Kumar

#1
Can anyone explain the difference between product audit (TS 126949 Clause 8.2.2.3) & layout inspection (TS 16949 Clause 8.2.4.1). Both clauses talk about product dimention & performance and all specified requirements.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Product Audit vs Layout

Typically, a layout is dimensional and functional verification of the (final) product against the current customer spec. and is a way to confirm that it is being made to the latest set of requirements - it's derived from the 'old' Chrysler Supplier Quality requirements for an annual layout.

Product audits on the other hand are a verification that what's being produced is correct to internal and customer specifications and can be performed on a variety of stages in production; e.g. on a part before painting or after painting. My experience has been that there is a possibility to 'overlap' these activities to reduce the duplication of effort of the layout and the 'dimensional' aspect of product audit.

Furthermore, product audits also look at aspects such as packaging/labeling/dunnage cleanliness etc. The focus can change in an audit, depending on what results you're getting from product inspection results, customer concerns etc.

The frequency of audits can be based taking into account issues that affect the customer etc so that they can be used to monitor the 'health' of what's going out to the customer as a kind of 'protection'.

Hope this helps. Anyone else got some further 'spin'?

Andy
 

Miner

Forum Moderator
Staff member
Admin
#3
Another distinction is that a product audit typically focuses on the critical/key/significant dimensions, whereas the layout inspects all dimensions.
 
B

BSpitler

#4
There is alot of overlap. I think the difference is in the purpose, scope and approach of each activity. The purpose of product audit (8.2.2.3) is to verify conformity to all specified requirements, while layout inspection and functional testing (8.2.4.1) is to verify conformity to customer engineering standards.

Remember, ISO defines "product" as "the output of a process." The scope of a product audit encompasses the output of each stage of the product realization process (including design and development!). Layout inspection and functional testing is limited in scope to "each product as specified in the control plans." A product audit will consider additional things such as conformance with statutory and regulatory requirements, internal specifications, packaging, labeling and functionality.

The approach is also different. Product audits are part of an organization's internal audit program to determine whether the QMS is effective. The conformity of products (ISO definition) it produces are evidence of that effectiveness. The ISO "process approach" is used. The auditor will look for internal audit records as evidence that the requirements of 8.2.2.3 have been met.

Layout inspection and functional testing is a Chrysler left over from QS-9000. The auditor will look for inspection/test records as evidence that the requirements of 8.2.4.1 have been met. Don't forget additional customer specific requirements, such as DCXs, require layout inspection and functional testing on each component.

The auditor may also want to observe either activity as part of the assessment.

Hope this helps...
 

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
Re: Product Audit (8.2.2.3) vs. Layout Inspection (8.2.4.1) - What are the difference

I seem to be coming back around to 8.2.4.1 periodically to clarify how layout and functional testing is related to Customer Specific Requirements of Annual Layout and Functional Testing, and Product Audits.

How does 8.2.4.1 relate to monitoring and measurement - beyond the CSR to be performed annually?

Could a TS system have Dock Audits and Annual Layouts combined to meet TS Product Audits?

Thanks for your clarification in these maters!

Doug
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Re: Product Audit (8.2.2.3) vs. Layout Inspection (8.2.4.1) - What are the difference

I seem to be coming back around to 8.2.4.1 periodically to clarify how layout and functional testing is related to Customer Specific Requirements of Annual Layout and Functional Testing, and Product Audits.

How does 8.2.4.1 relate to monitoring and measurement - beyond the CSR to be performed annually?

Could a TS system have Dock Audits and Annual Layouts combined to meet TS Product Audits?

Thanks for your clarification in these maters!

Doug
There are a few misconceptions in the responses so far (in addition to the usual good information). Layouts have been being done since long before the advent of Chrysler's erstwhile QS-9000 requirements. It's the norm for layouts to be done for all new products, whether automotive or not, especially where hard tooling is involved. A layout is nothing more than full dimensional inspection. Part of an automotive layout (for PPAP purposes, e.g.) is also verification of all non-dimensional design record requirements, such as insuring that the requisite testing has been satisfactorily completed.

A product audit, on the other hand, is verification of the process that produced the parts in question, and may or may not include a full layout. A product audit will typically follow the process from receipt of raw materials, through production, and on to the packaging/shipping process. It's not necessary, in my experience, to take it all the way back to the design/development stage, as that process should be addressed separately. An exception might be in the case of new parts, where the entire system is audited in the pre-launch phase.

In answer to Doug's question about dock audits and annual layouts being sufficient to answer the requirements for product audits, annual (or any other) layout is a separate process, and should be done only when there's a customer requirement or other rational reason. Dock audits, on the other hand, are usually intended to verify only the post-production condition of the product and packaging/storage/shipping requirements. What is normally identified as a dock audit isn't sufficient to satisfy the requirements of a product audit, although it depends on the scope of the audit.
 

Raffy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
Re: Product Audit (8.2.2.3) vs. Layout Inspection (8.2.4.1) - What are the difference

If we don’t have any customer specific requirements, what could be the strong evidence that we can provide if we adjust the frequency for layout inspection, e.g. from 1 year to three years? Please advise.
Best regards,
Raffy:cool:
 

sushant_kulkarni

Involved In Discussions
#8
Re: Product Audit (8.2.2.3) vs. Layout Inspection (8.2.4.1) - What are the difference

As far as our company ,

Product audit only included key chrac. or CTQ. and not carrited out performance test.

While Layout inspection carried out with dimensional and functional verification of the (final) product with CSR.
 

sushant_kulkarni

Involved In Discussions
#9
Re: Product Audit (8.2.2.3) vs. Layout Inspection (8.2.4.1) - What are the difference

If we don’t have any customer specific requirements, what could be the strong evidence that we can provide if we adjust the frequency for layout inspection, e.g. from 1 year to three years? Please advise.
Best regards,
Raffy:cool:
DRG./model is good evidence for layout inspection because its gives you dimension as well as specification.

anyone say more than that........
 
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