Product Specification vs. Information Defining Product - The differences? 7.3.3.1

[morteza]

Hi all
I have a problem with clause 7.3.3.1 of ISO/TS 16949. In that clause ISO/TS mentions several product design outputs. I can not understand the differences between two below outputs:
- Product specifications.
- Product definition including drawings or mathematically based data.
My root problem is that I don't know what are product specifications and product information or documents defining product . I think product specifications include product definition documents such as drawings.
Also, what is the difference between product specifications and engineering specifications (clause 4.2.3.1)?
I would be grateful if some one answer above questions and give me more information about mathematically based data.

 

[Stijloor]

A Quick Bump!

Can someone help morteza?

Thank you very much!!

Stijloor.

 

[jelly1921]

Hi all
I have a problem with clause 7.3.3.1 of ISO/TS 16949. In that clause ISO/TS mentions several product design outputs. I can not understand the differences between two below outputs:
- Product specifications.
- Product definition including drawings or mathematically based data.
My root problem is that I don't know what are product specifications and product information or documents defining product . I think product specifications include product definition documents such as drawings.
Also, what is the difference between product specifications and engineering specifications (clause 4.2.3.1)?
I would be grateful if some one answer above questions and give me more information about mathematically based data.

Product specification: Written statement of a product's required characteristics documented in a manner that facilitate its procurement or production and acceptance. It's customer's view of product. It could be confirmed by 7.3.6

Product definition: Producer's view of a product that includes product concept, design requirements and specifications, features, target market, pricing points, positioning strategy, etc. It could be confirmed by 7.3.5

Engineering specification: characteristics of the complete product that are directly related to the satisfaction of Product definition.

Jelly

 

[morteza]

Hi Jelly
Thanks for your answer.
In ISO/TS 16949 the three below terms have been used:
1- Products specifications:
The term "specification" has been defined in ISO 9000 (clause 3.7.3) as a document stating requirements.

2- Product definition:
That can be printed (hard copy) drawing or CAD drawings. (Math data)

3- Engineering specification.

According to APQP manual, design outputs include:
2.6 Engineering drawings.
By comparing clause 2.6 of APQP with clause 7.3.3.1 of ISO/TS, I think the ISO/TS intend from product definition should be drawings or math data, and it does not include pricing or target market.

2.7 Engineering specifications
According to this clause of APQP, it seems that engineering specifications are about functional/performance requirements. Engineering specifications do not include dimensional matters.

I would be so grateful if you give me more standard definitions about these terms.
Thanks all

 

[Jim Wynne]

Hi all
I have a problem with clause 7.3.3.1 of ISO/TS 16949. In that clause ISO/TS mentions several product design outputs. I can not understand the differences between two below outputs:
- Product specifications.
- Product definition including drawings or mathematically based data.

You've left out part of one of the requirements. It doesn't just say
"Product specifications," it says "Product special characteristics and specifications," which I take to mean specifications relative to special characteristics.

My root problem is that I don't know what are product specifications and product information or documents defining product . I think product specifications include product definition documents such as drawings.

"Product information" is a broad category that includes specifications.

Also, what is the difference between product specifications and engineering specifications (clause 4.2.3.1)?
I would be grateful if some one answer above questions and give me more information about mathematically based data.

There is no difference between product specifications and engineering specifications. I'm not sure what you're looking for with regard to mathematically based data; it refers to CAD data, often referred to as "math data" in automotive work.

 

[morteza]

Hi Jim,
I am not native to English language. I think "product special characteristics and specifications" should be interpreted as follows:
product special characteristics and product specifications.
But you believe the requirement should be consider as follows:
product special characteristics and Product special specifications.
I think product special characteristics include product special specifications, so there is no necessary to repeat it.
Also, on my idea, product specifications in this clause refer to functional/performance requirements (based on customer needs). If product specifications refer to other aspects of product such as dimensions, why TS require product definition such as drawings? (Of course, this question would be right if my understanding from "product special characteristics and specifications" term be true.)
Engineering specifications (4.2.3.1) refer to all product requirements (including product specifications as well as dimensions).
Thanks.
Waiting for your answer and other ideas…..

 

[Jim Wynne]

Hi Jim,
I am not native to English language. I think "product special characteristics and specifications" should be interpreted as follows:
product special characteristics and product specifications.
But you believe the requirement should be consider as follows:
product special characteristics and Product special specifications.
I think product special characteristics include product special specifications, so there is no necessary to repeat it.
Also, on my idea, product specifications in this clause refer to functional/performance requirements (based on customer needs). If product specifications refer to other aspects of product such as dimensions, why TS require product definition such as drawings? (Of course, this question would be right if my understanding from "product special characteristics and specifications" term be true.)
Engineering specifications (4.2.3.1) refer to all product requirements (including product specifications as well as dimensions).
Thanks.
Waiting for your answer and other ideas…..

I think the problem is that the TS16949 additions to ISO 9001 are not always clear, even to native English speakers. There is in particular a problem with describing the same thing using different terms, as you have discovered. There is a feeling on the part of many users of the standard, particularly those who are not native English speakers, that because two (or more) different terms are used, they must have different and distinct meanings. It might be helpful if when you see "product specifications" or "product information," you think of it as product requirements.