Providing Auditee with Checklist prior to Audit

Randy

Super Moderator
#11
gpainter said:
A lot of it is based on FEAR (False Evidence Apearing Real)
More is based upon ignorance of the process due to lack of participation from the get-go, the attitudes of bonehead auditors on ego trips and tricksters trying to play mindgames by answering "yes, no and not-my-responsibility".

This is of course an unsolicited personal opinion.
 
Last edited:
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Gerry Quinn

#12
I always send a copy of my checklist and audit plan to the auditee (internal and suppliers). I tell them that its a device to keep me focused and to let them know what I will be examining and approximately when (time of day) I will be doing it.
So far my feedback has been positive. Everyone likes getting the up front notification. But if they stopped to think about the auditing process, they would realize that everything is fair game and that they should be ready for an audit at all times.
 

RoxaneB

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#13
Depends (and yes, it's extremely uncomfortable sitting on the fence like this!) :eek:

For internal audits, I refuse to provide a copy of the checklist. If they want a copy of the standard or have questions, hey, I'm more than happy to help them out, but once I don my auditor garb (aka lady-in-black), they get ask "tea time" questions. Seldom do I ask verbatim from the standard (ex. "Do you have document for document control?"...yawn!). Our guys are used to questions like "So, how does what you're doing right now impact quality or our Customers being happy?", "I see you're getting ready to receive a shipment, can you walk me the process of it?", "Okay, testing machine, recording software....how does all of this ensure the Customer gets the product they want?", and so on.

External audits, though, there's a slightly different angle. Despite my pseudo-Darth Vadar approach, our guys know me...they accept me on the floor. Strangers make 'em a bit on edge...primarily for safety reasons, but still, here's someone to critique our system. You can't honestly expect us to welcome External Auditors with open arms, now, can you?

So...if there are new auditees or people who just wish to refamiliarize themselves with the requirements, I'll give them a copy of our checklist or the standard and will sit down with them to explain things in plain English.

A lot of it, though, depends on the maturity of the system. For ISO 9001 (attained in 1998), I can give a few days notice about an audit and all is well with the world. My biggest worry is what to order for lunch. :) For ISO 14001 (attained in 2001), a bit more notice is given and an occasional reminder about the requirements is provided. For ISRS, well, our external will be in November....folks have known about it for 2 months already and will be provided with a checklist of the requirements, the requirements in common english, and examples of how we meet the requirements. My recent internal audit demonstrated a slight discomfort with the questions and there was definately a steep learning curve for all involved (myself, included!).
 
J

Jim Howe

#14
audits

When I started the first round of internal audits we agreed that it should be a learning experience and used to promote the entire QMS. So I furnished a completed questionaire with my notice of audit. To my surprise, on more then one occassion, I was asked to belay the audit. It seems that when we were writing the QMS all was well but when put into question form an awakening occurred. (This guy is serious! Do we really do what this says?)
Now of course the entire management team has learned just what is expected during an audit and I simply announce when it will be. I do the same when perforimg a time study.
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Wow, ISO/IEC 17025 accreditation is easier I think.....

I remember my days in the 9K world, multitudes of checklists and so forth.....

The accrediting bodies operating in North America (in fact, pretty much globally) use essentially the same checklist, based on the Standard. Each of us tweaks the look a bit to satisfy our particular way of doing things, but the basic checklist is the same.

Much easier to deal with.

And most ABs will provide the checklist if requested by the customer.

Hershal
 
T

tsarlymayn

#16
How to conduct a proper Environmental Management Audit?

Hi there,

I am new here, I came across the forums when I was browsing the net for some information on how to conduct proper Environmental Management Audit based on ISO14001:2004 version.

Our company here in the Philippines will undergo certification audit for the new version of the ISO14001 and must conduct an internal audit.

I just don't know how to begin, what to include in the checklist, etc...I know of a process-based Quality Management Audit, how about in EM?

Could someone provide me a procedure or a method on EMS auditing?

It would really help a lot.

Thanks.
 

Raffy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#17
Hi tsarlymayn

Welcome to the Cove! There are so many information that you could search on this forum. It did also work for me in many times.
We'll also undergo the ISO14001:2004 probably Q1 of 2006.
Best regards,
Raffy
 
#18
You guys are missing the point.......

if we are talking about an internal audit. Sure, doing a surprise audit is a bad thing! But what's sharing your checklist before the audit got to do with it?:frust:
Do you think the auditee gives a fig for what you've got on your checklist?:mg:

Do they understand what the words mean, what you're looking for etc? You have to stop doing audits like 3rd party/Registrar auditors and join the 21st century!!:bonk:
Most internal auditors get trained and behave like 3rd party/registrar auditors. No wonder folks get defensive when an audit is done! When did anyone who's planning an audit, actually involve the management of the process? When did any auditor actually ask management what they want to see corrected or improved about their process(es)? Shouldn't the checklist be details of those problems, instead of some dumb questions, based on phrases of 'ISO' that no-one has ever read or understood:read:

It has zero/nothing/zilch/nada to do with 'sharing' checklists. It's all about how effectively you schedule, plan and prepare for the audit. For example, how many audit managers/process owners schedule a whole year's worth of audits on some kind of calendar? It's not required to do that, but most 3rd party auditors want to see it done that way!:mad: So the organization's management get little/no benefit from audits - try asking them (of course they won't tell you straight, but if you didn't maintain an 'ISO' registration, just see if they'd continue to pay for/support internal audits):rolleyes:

Of course, 3rd party auditors will always do what they do, because they don't learn from their experiences. They've (essentially) been doing audits the same way since they started over 15 years ago:nopity:
 

Al Rosen

Staff member
Super Moderator
#19
AndyN said:
It has zero/nothing/zilch/nada to do with 'sharing' checklists. It's all about how effectively you schedule, plan and prepare for the audit. For example, how many audit managers/process owners schedule a whole year's worth of audits on some kind of calendar? It's not required to do that, but most 3rd party auditors want to see it done that way!
I thought "at planned intervals" meant scheduled so I maintain a yearly schedule. It doesn't mean that it always happens exactly according to the schedule, since you can't always predict everything that might occur a year in advance.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#20
AndyN said:
if we are talking about an internal audit. Sure, doing a surprise audit is a bad thing! But what's sharing your checklist before the audit got to do with it?:frust:
Do you think the auditee gives a fig for what you've got on your checklist?:mg:

Do they understand what the words mean, what you're looking for etc? You have to stop doing audits like 3rd party/Registrar auditors and join the 21st century!!:bonk:
Most internal auditors get trained and behave like 3rd party/registrar auditors. No wonder folks get defensive when an audit is done! When did anyone who's planning an audit, actually involve the management of the process? When did any auditor actually ask management what they want to see corrected or improved about their process(es)? Shouldn't the checklist be details of those problems, instead of some dumb questions, based on phrases of 'ISO' that no-one has ever read or understood:read:

It has zero/nothing/zilch/nada to do with 'sharing' checklists. It's all about how effectively you schedule, plan and prepare for the audit. For example, how many audit managers/process owners schedule a whole year's worth of audits on some kind of calendar? It's not required to do that, but most 3rd party auditors want to see it done that way!:mad: So the organization's management get little/no benefit from audits - try asking them (of course they won't tell you straight, but if you didn't maintain an 'ISO' registration, just see if they'd continue to pay for/support internal audits):rolleyes:

Of course, 3rd party auditors will always do what they do, because they don't learn from their experiences. They've (essentially) been doing audits the same way since they started over 15 years ago:nopity:

Andy, I appreciate your comments, at least most of them. (I do think many auditors have learned a lot over the last 15 years however).

You have raised several good points in the last couple days. However, from this thread, it sounds like oyu have had more bad experiences than good with audits, both internal and external. For that I am sorry. I do both types of audits, and can assure you that some auditors try very hard to do really good, value added audits.

But like any field, not all practitioners are skillful. By definition, at least half are always below average. But curiously, I find that same ratio to apply to the Managers and Engineers I audit. (hmmm... there might be an audit trail in there somewhere...lol).

We here on the Cove must remember we are drivers and owners of the Quality process. Most of us are in that process, and that process must learn to see itself as the internal suppliers of a product or service to other internal customers in our plants.

Therefore, I think we need to seek ways to improve the services we offer our internal customers, to improve the level of internal customer satisfaction. And that means the internal auditors must learn to see themselves as suppliers too, not Kwality Kops. Many already do understand.

That alone would make a big improvement in some companies.

PS: annual schedules may be a req. after all. ISO says "planned intervals" (8.2.2) and TS requires they be scheduled to an "annual plan." (8.2.2.4). Of course, the plan can be adjusted as the year unfolds, but that can't be that big a sticking point, is it?
 
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