Providing Auditee with Checklist prior to Audit

L

lucasso

#31
I have a bunch of comments, however:caution:

perhaps the internal audit process is not rigorous enough.
Well, what do you mean? How to make it more rigorous? Example?

After a period of time, the folk get the idea that the IA is not going away and recognize its value, so generally they tend to keep things up in a more positive manner.
Quite diferent in my situation. Folks learn that after a scheduled audit they are not gonna be bothered until the next audit.

I wonder why the standards dont allow spontaneous IA. Like, you come to work one day, grab your pen and checklist, run into the lab, and: "Aha! Gotcha!" :D

It happens quite often that i come to the laboratory just to chat with my coleagues and i see a lot of nonconformities. And it just itches me to have an IA done, but, well, it's not the time for an IA.
 
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#32
Well, that is why Automotive started pushing layered audits. It was no mystery that this was going on, go they essentially have people audit every week, with layers of management participating in the audit. That way, the clean-up is smaller, the system is "kept up" more routinely. It is like 5S'ing the system.

From what I understand, Bob, that's not why Chrysler (then a main proponent) pushed them.

Their story was it improved the build process at their Kokomo 'KTP 2' transmission plant. Since they had a low FTC at launch - in his infinite wisdom - the then EVP of Manufacturing, Tom LaSorda told them to do LPA's. The FTC sky rocketed....but no one ever asked how come the Powertrain Advanced Manufacturing Engineering group launched such a crappy process on the Plant......Mr LaSorda never fixed that, did he and PTAME was never part of any QMS, either......

Today, anyone from KTP 2 will tell you it's become a pencil whipping exercise!
 
#33
Well, what do you mean? How to make it more rigorous? Example?



Quite diferent in my situation. Folks learn that after a scheduled audit they are not gonna be bothered until the next audit.

I wonder why the standards dont allow spontaneous IA. Like, you come to work one day, grab your pen and checklist, run into the lab, and: "Aha! Gotcha!" :D

It happens quite often that i come to the laboratory just to chat with my coleagues and i see a lot of nonconformities. And it just itches me to have an IA done, but, well, it's not the time for an IA.
Your whole audit process needs an overhaul! More importantly, your people are a reflection of the company's management style, so that appears to need fixing first....
 
B

Boscoeee

#34
Well, what do you mean? How to make it more rigorous? Example? By increasing the number of audits you are going to send the signal that this is important and that audit ready is a way of life.



Quite diferent in my situation. Folks learn that after a scheduled audit they are not gonna be bothered until the next audit.This is a people issue, but if you have the audit as often as needed then you will be covered.

I wonder why the standards dont allow spontaneous IA. Like, you come to work one day, grab your pen and checklist, run into the lab, and: "Aha! Gotcha!" :DIt creates a harassment environment.:2cents:

It happens quite often that i come to the laboratory just to chat with my coleagues and i see a lot of nonconformities. And it just itches me to have an IA done, but, well, it's not the time for an IA.
My comment inserted in Red!
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
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#35
Today, anyone from KTP 2 will tell you it's become a pencil whipping exercise!
That is not entirely surprising. I have always pondered when we were directed by GM to have our "upper management" (read "owner") do LPA's that their assembly plant manager did one, too.

But, fact is any audit system can become pencil whipping exercise. On the other hand, I have been in quality systems where LPAs were very effective at maintaining the system and preventing mass clean-ups. So, it is clearly a not a problem conceptually - more so in implementation and culture.
 
#36
It would help to know how often audits occur and how many auditors you have etc.

You may not, yet, be meeting the requirements of an effective internal audit program. Your problem may lie there, for a start....
 
L

lucasso

#37
Your whole audit process needs an overhaul! More importantly, your people are a reflection of the company's management style, so that appears to need fixing first....
Correct observation. The management is busy with other things, and thinks that QS is just necesarry requirement by our government.

Why are you saying that "gotcha" attitude would not help to keep the laboratory ISO17025-compliant all year round not just two days before the audit?

And back to my original question: why the standards do not allow spontaneous IA? It could leave up the company to decide which apporach is better. But no, they require IA to have a predetermined schedule.
 

bobdoering

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#38
It happens quite often that i come to the laboratory just to chat with my colleagues and i see a lot of nonconformities. And it just itches me to have an IA done, but, well, it's not the time for an IA.
As Dr. Phil would say "How's that working for you?"

In a control plan, if your sampling rate is too infrequent to recognize a problem until it is too late, you increase your sampling rate. Same thing here. If the plan is not working, fix the plan.
 
#39
That is not entirely surprising. I have always pondered when we were directed by GM to have our "upper management" (read "owner") do LPA's that their assembly plant manager did one, too.

But, fact is any audit system can become pencil whipping exercise. On the other hand, I have been in quality systems where LPAs were very effective at maintaining the system and preventing mass clean-ups. So, it is clearly a not a problem conceptually - more so in implementation and culture.
Conceptually it is a problem......they've substituted a 'tool' for what should be routine supervisory and management practices, supported by a robust quality (business) management system.......I guarantee Mr. LaSorda (from GM, before Chrysler LLC) couldn't explain that one......

There'd be no pencil whipping then.......
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#40
Correct observation. The management is busy with other things, and thinks that QS is just necessary requirement by our government.

Why are you saying that "gotcha" attitude would not help to keep the laboratory ISO17025-compliant all year round not just two days before the audit?

And back to my original question: why the standards do not allow spontaneous IA? It could leave up the company to decide which approach is better. But no, they require IA to have a predetermined schedule.

They want - at a minimum - to cover all of the standard in the internal audits. So, to make sure you do, they want to see a schedule that covers it. Does that mean that is the sole limitation of internal audits? No. You can exceed the requirement all you want - especially as a corrective action verification activity.

Also, look at your resources requirement. Are they adequate? Are they prioritized correctly?
 
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