Providing Auditee with Checklist prior to Audit

#41
Correct observation. The management is busy with other things, and thinks that QS is just necesarry requirement by our government.

Why are you saying that "gotcha" attitude would not help to keep the laboratory ISO17025-compliant all year round not just two days before the audit?

And back to my original question: why the standards do not allow spontaneous IA? It could leave up the company to decide which apporach is better. But no, they require IA to have a predetermined schedule.
I didn't mention anything about 'gotcha' audits - but anyone who has been a kid and found 'smoking behind the bike sheds' knows it doesn't stop anything! It didn't stop you doing anything, did it?

So, you can do spontaneous audits if you wish! Create a monster, feed it! ISO 9001 doesn't have to have a predetermined schedule! Where did you read that????:read:
 
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L

lucasso

#42
Thanks for all replies. I see that the winner is "increase frequency". And i am sure it would help. But IA can not be done every week or every month. It all relates to extra costs - extra hours or extra staff.
The simpliest (and most cost efficient) thing seems to be to have spontaneous IA...
 
#43
They want - at a minimum - to cover all of the standard in the internal audits. So, to make sure you do, they want to see a schedule that covers it.
Who are they? Who says you have to cover all the standard? It's not a requirement is it?:notme:

CB auditors may say such things, but it's partly to relieve themselves of the potential for writing a major nc and causing some embarrassment due to the clients ineffective audit rogram management.
 

bobdoering

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#44
Conceptually it is a problem......they've substituted a 'tool' for what should be routine supervisory and management practices, supported by a robust quality (business) management system.
No, it is not a problem. Yes, it is a tool that provides a stuctured basis - not a substitution - for routine supervisory and management practices to maintain a robust quality (business) management system. Used correctly it is effective at keeping the system monitored more closely and even permits measureable verification of the condition of the system.

Does everyone need the tool? No, their systems and processes may be so simple and obvious that everything is right in front of them. Good for them.
 
L

lucasso

#45
I didn't mention anything about 'gotcha' audits - but anyone who has been a kid and found 'smoking behind the bike sheds' knows it doesn't stop anything! It didn't stop you doing anything, did it?
SURE it did!!! :yes:


So, you can do spontaneous audits if you wish! Create a monster, feed it! ISO 9001 doesn't have to have a predetermined schedule! Where did you read that????:read:
Sorry for confussion.
ISO9001 requires planned intervals (whatever that means).
ISO17025 requires a predetermined schedule
 
#46
Thanks for all replies. I see that the winner is "increase frequency". And i am sure it would help. But IA can not be done every week or every month. It all relates to extra costs - extra hours or extra staff.
The simpliest (and most cost efficient) thing seems to be to have spontaneous IA...
Did you read my article? Of course you can do audits weekly or monthly! Costs are saved by the improvements audits bring, if the program is managed effectively. Just increasing frequency isn't the answer.......you need to target the processes where the maximum (management) benefit can be derived.....you can't just put a calendar together and audit without consulting performance issues!

The audits will be all over the place and simply feed the very problems you stated earlier about people cleaning up - because they see no value in your audit efforts!
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#47
Thanks for all replies. I see that the winner is "increase frequency". And i am sure it would help. But IA can not be done every week or every month. It all relates to extra costs - extra hours or extra staff.
The simplest (and most cost efficient) thing seems to be to have spontaneous IA...
Andy is right, it is not just the issue of audit frequency, but what you do to correct the problem (if and when you detect it). If you get to the point where the systems are corrected, you can reduce the audits. You do not have to increase the audits for the whole system, you can do it in the troubled areas.

It sounds like you are in a predicament where people are looking at your quality system requirements as an option rather than a requirement - and a lot of that comes from the perception of the message from upper management. If that is the case, you will have an ongoing problem - few will want to invest their efforts in fixing it, as it will be a low priority.
 
S

sudwel

#48
It happens quite often that i come to the laboratory just to chat with my coleagues and i see a lot of nonconformities. And it just itches me to have an IA done, but, well, it's not the time for an IA.
My former workplace was ISO 9001 and 17025 registered - and if we saw a lot of nonconformities just passing through the lab - we'd mention them to staff and maybe even write up an NC - you don't need to wait until an IA to generate nonconformities.

For example - I once passed an engineer receiving materials and commented "Oh, is that the pipe for project X?" "Yes" he replied "Is is PVC pipe, it looks a little different than our normal material?" I asked. "No" He replied, "We're using CPVC pipe for project X" "Is it being constructed under our Certificate of Authorization?" I asked "Yes" he replied. "Hmm... our COA doesn't allow us to use CPVC - only PVC - I'll have to ensure our Quality Manual is updated and that the Authorized Inspector has accepted our updates before we begin instruction - we have a nonconformance on our hands!" - I then went to write up the NC as our Engineering Department hadn't consulted our Quality person (me!) to ensure our COA covered all PVC types - and obviously they hadn't read the Quality Manual that would have told them what they needed to know! (Here in Ontario, if you manufacture or repair pressure systems you have to have a Certificate of Authorization from the Technical Standards and Safety Authority - which involves having a Quality Manual which an Authorized Inspector from their organization must approve - and they must also approve all changes).

IMHO - raising NCs, or empowering staff by letting them know they can raise NCs outside of the IA process helps promote ownership and gets people "thinking quality" on a day-to-day basis.

Darlene
 
B

bonterra

#49
I see you've had several replies to your questions and I concur. From my experience, giving the auditees the heads up of what will be reviewed during the internal audit encourages participation. Audits should not be pop quizzes - something to be feared, but seen as opportunities to improve the system. And if indeed the employees were cleaning up only for the audit, and the processes not being followed consistently, this would eventually be identified - most likely through defects in the downstream process. Also, the checklist is usually just an outline and not a detailed list so the auditees wouldn't really have all the answers before hand. I send the checklist as a courtesy 1 - 2 weeks prior to the audit. The auditees have it if they want to read it, but many times are too busy to take the time.
 
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