PV (Production Validation) test plan responsibility

Mr Skeleton

Starting to get Involved
#11
I think there are two test plans required by APQP. The first (DV) validates the design is good (element 23 from the ford Doc) and answers the question "if the parts are made according the design, will it perform in service to the required level" and is done on prototype "nominal" parts. The next testing (PV) confirms the process is delivering the design (element 50 from the ford doc) and answers the question "does the expected process performance deliver the required product performance" and could only be designed with reference to the process and the understood risks.

I'm referencing the Ford doc because I'm currently locked out of AIAG and can't ref their manual.
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#12
The definition of PV from my business process is "Product Validation testing" but the element of APQP taken from Ford's APQP guideline is "Production Validation Testing". This is relevant because my business's processes are derived from Fords
Yea - Variations an a theme. Note that the Ford document is from 2001 - Things haven't changed. Add in that all sorts of companies now embrace what they call APQP. The Ford document is a good one with respect to detail of their customer specific requirements, but all in all it's pretty standard stuff going back over 20 years, actually.

As you noticed, the first thing that came up in this discussion was what you meant by "PV".
 

Mr Skeleton

Starting to get Involved
#14
So I don't understand the difference, unless the 2nd lot of testing from "off process" parts represents all potential process risk conditions? And how can you know that without reference to the PFMEA? I would like the DV to validate the design and then (in an Ideal world) no further testing unless the process risk (defined in PFMEA) requires it.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#15
I'm referencing the Ford doc because I'm currently locked out of AIAG and can't ref their manual.
Well, it's pretty much all here: https://elsmar.com/APQP/ - Technically I did that around 1997 or so. The "printout" here is from later, but again - This is all really old stuff. The catch is that often different companies use a slightly different name for something than another company uses.

I first got involved in automotive back around 1988, first with Ford and then GM, and all of this was the same then as now. Terminology has always been an issue. Ford calls something <term 1> and GM calls the exact same thing <term 2>.

So I don't understand the difference, unless the 2nd lot of testing from "off process" parts represents all potential process risk conditions? And how can you know that without reference to the PFMEA? I would like the DV to validate the design and then (in an Ideal world) no further testing unless the process risk (defined in PFMEA) requires it.
First, stop using terms like "DV". Say what you are referring to. There are too many meanings for "DV". Spell out the acronyms. If you mean Design Validation, type in Design Validation.

"Off the process" testing is Process Validation. Yes - It uses the Process FMEA to design the test. It also uses the Design FMEA in that the Design FMEA feeds into the Process FMEA.

And Yes -
testing from "off process" parts represents all potential process risk conditions
That is exactly what your Process Validation test design is intended to do.
 

Mr Skeleton

Starting to get Involved
#16
First, stop using terms like "DV". Say what you are referring to. There are too many meanings for "DV". Spell out the acronyms. If you mean Design Validation, type in Design Validation.
Easy fella, I get your point, but don't appreciate the tone, especially when I did clarify my abbreviations as requested

Good point about abbreviations (y)

STA / SQA = Supplier Technical Assistance / Supplier Quality Engineer
OEM = Original End manufacturer
PV = Production Validation
DV = Design Verification
PFMEA = Process Failure Mode & Effects Analysis
 

Mr Skeleton

Starting to get Involved
#17
We got there though:

"Off the process" testing is Process Validation. Yes - It uses the Process FMEA to design the test. It also uses the Design FMEA in that the Design FMEA feeds into the Process FMEA.

And Yes -
That is exactly what your Process Validation test design is intended to do.
My experience in my business is that with Product Development department engineers responsible for this APQP deliverable, there is no reference to PFMEA by them and they fail to design a robust and value for money Production validation test plan. making the testing ineffective and wasteful.

Bringing me back to my first point:

"PV test plans are ineffective and inefficient. They are created with little or no respect for the PFMEA and therefor the risk inherent in the process so are ineffective and wasteful".
 

Mr Skeleton

Starting to get Involved
#18
So the question is, if anybody here has good experience creating PV (Production Validation) test plans. Clarification of best practice methods etc.

And if the STA / SPQ team are (normally) responsible for developing and approving the suppliers manufacturing quality system, primarily the PFMEA & Control Plan, should they not also be responsible for the PV test plan?

All views and comments welcome
 

Johnnymo62

Haste Makes Waste
#20
My experience with Production Validation plans has nothing to do with process variation. It was a part of design.

We made xx number of acceptable parts off of Production tooling/process and verified they passed design requirements at all the different operating conditions (hi/lo temperatures voltages, pressures etc.).
 
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