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Pyrometry Question - Furnace and Oven Instrument Calibration IAW AMS 2750

K

KwalityWonk

#1
Hello all-

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum or not , but am hoping someone with knowledge of the subject responds.

My question is in regards to furnace / oven Instrument Calibration IAW AMS 2750.

Paragraph 3.2.5.5 states "Sensitvity shall be checked during calibration. See Table 3, footnote 4."

Table 3 footnote 4 states "Class 1 and 2 instruments shall have a minimum sesnitivity of 1°F (1°C). Class 3 through 6 instruments shall have a minimum sensitivity of 3°F (2°C)."

Can anyone explain what "minimum sensitivity" is? I see nothing on my calibration certs that specifies sensitivity. I'm afraid I'm looking at a finding on an upcomming Nadcap Audit. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
 
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G

George Weiss

#2
Sensitivity when related to calibration would fall into two types being measure and make.
  1. Measure; could be described as the least significant digit of the digital temperature measurement display.
  2. Make; could be described as the least significant digit of setting ability of the temperature controller.
In AMS 2750 there is a need to perform a uniformity survey for furnace class 1, which is +/-3deg.C or +/-5deg.F

A separate calibration display standard, with by some accounts 8 or more inputs is needed with a "sensitivity" of +/-1 deg. C.
I am gathering from all of the information that you need to be sure your survey standard is accurate to +/-1 deg. C. or for sure has a least significant digit of 1 deg. C. I would bet that at the metal curing temperatures, that the temperature display will drop the 0.1 resolution. Most process displays have resolution of 0.1 deg. But over 200 deg. C or F they have only 1 deg. Resolution. Class 2, 3, 4 etc. furnaces have lesser tolorances.
Generally T/C, (thermocouple), inputs for survey devices are described, and T/C have a generic spec. of about +/-2 deg. C.
I hope this somehow helps……………………….
 
Last edited by a moderator:
S

Sorin

#3
AMS2750D
8.2.55
"Sensitivity": The temperature change in the input that is required to activate a change, either upscale or downscale on the instrumentation. It is normally one-half the numerical value of the dead band, such as: a sensitivity of 1 °F (0.6 °C) is equivalent to a dead band of 2 °F (1.1 °C).

When you are performing the calibration (or your supplier), you need to ensure that any change in the simulated input is mirrored by your instrument as specified in AMS2750D.

Example: if your required sensitivity is 1 F, take 3 consecutive points (usually the middle of your working range) and wrote them down: standard calibration versus your instrument.
Assuming your midrange is 600 F, we have 599, 600, 601.

Calibration standard: 599, 600, 601
Your instrument: 599, 600, 601.

Edit: just read that you don't have the sensitivity on your CoC. Tell your supplier to taker a look at Para 3.2.6.2 in AMS2750D.
Also, on your CoC, is there a statement that calibration was performed per AMS2750D?
 
K

KwalityWonk

#4
Thank you all for your replys.

Sorin, thanks for the reference in AMS 2750. I see now that our Calibration supplier's Cert does not meet all the requirements of 3.2.6.2. And no the cert for the controlling, indicating and recording instruments does not specify IAW AMS 2750, though their internal procedure is referenced. I guess I will have to review their procedures to see if they comply, then ensure we flow all requirements on our purchase orders. Obviously the certs should have specified / certified this parameter.

Thanks again for your informed reply:agree1: And since you seem to know your way around pyrometry, let me pose another question.

Our ovens are used for curing of coatings, mostly paint, but some resins, and NDT drying. We do not perform any thermal processing as define in AMS 2750 8.2.68.

Nadcap requires that ovens for processes performed above 250°F be certified per AMS 2750, class 5 Type D, unless more stringent customer requirements are imposed. We have no problems meeting the equipment, calibration, TUS, and SAT requirements for class 5, however we have a few processes that require cure temperatures be held to ± 10°F. The specs for these processes do not specify pyrometry IAW AMS 2750, nor any uniformity requirements. My question is this:

Can I run a process requiring ± 10°F in an Oven that has a certified uniformity of ± 25°F, if the Actual uniformity is within the ± 10°F ?

The additional testing frequency required by class 2 seems like overkill to dry paint, IMHO.

Thanks in advance!!
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#5
Thank you all for your replys.

Sorin, thanks for the reference in AMS 2750. I see now that our Calibration supplier's Cert does not meet all the requirements of 3.2.6.2. And no the cert for the controlling, indicating and recording instruments does not specify IAW AMS 2750, though their internal procedure is referenced. I guess I will have to review their procedures to see if they comply, then ensure we flow all requirements on our purchase orders. Obviously the certs should have specified / certified this parameter.
Yes. Note what Sorin implies. Your sensitivity requirement does not have to be on your calibration certificates. Basically what you want to do is "qualify" your instrumentation for the particular class. They need to be of a certain accuracy and such. I would suggest with your sensitivity, write down the PID settings for the controller. Actually, write down all the parameters in the controller. Then if you have to replace the controller, or:notme:you should ever get an operator go in and explore within the controller :notme::D, then you can always go back to the parameters that was working for your process.

Our ovens are used for curing of coatings, mostly paint, but some resins, and NDT drying. We do not perform any thermal processing as define in AMS 2750 8.2.68.

Nadcap requires that ovens for processes performed above 250°F be certified per AMS 2750, class 5 Type D, unless more stringent customer requirements are imposed. We have no problems meeting the equipment, calibration, TUS, and SAT requirements for class 5, however we have a few processes that require cure temperatures be held to ± 10°F. The specs for these processes do not specify pyrometry IAW AMS 2750, nor any uniformity requirements. My question is this:

Can I run a process requiring ± 10°F in an Oven that has a certified uniformity of ± 25°F, if the Actual uniformity is within the ± 10°F ?

The additional testing frequency required by class 2 seems like overkill to dry paint, IMHO.

Thanks in advance!!
Sorin will probably have a much better answer than I.

Do you have sufficient monitoring instrumentation/recording and such that you could legitimately extend the additional testing frequency?

Aside from the additional testing requirements, if you're oven is tested (uniformity) for ± 10°F, that would become it's certified uniformity, would it not? I just got confused by this part:

an Oven that has a certified uniformity of ± 25°F, if the Actual uniformity is within the ± 10°F ?
I would look at that specification requiring the ± 10°F. I've been out of that industry for a while. But... most all pyrometry specifications are referenced to AMS250. Could the ± 10°F possibly be a storage requirement or something?
 
K

KwalityWonk

#6
OK..... Nevermind the last question! I just found reference to a customer Pyrometry spec that requires the oven be controlled to Class 2 requirements of that spec. (BAC 5621) Thanks again for all the help!
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#7
:modcop: Hello, KwalityWonk!

If it's OK with you, I moved this to the Nadcap/ aerospace forum. Please do, feel free to come here and ask any questions you wish. Also invite any of your friends in the industry also.

We're glad you dropped by.:bigwave:
 
D

dv8shane

#9
Hello all-

I'm not sure if this is the correct forum or not , but am hoping someone with knowledge of the subject responds.

My question is in regards to furnace / oven Instrument Calibration IAW AMS 2750.

Paragraph 3.2.5.5 states "Sensitvity shall be checked during calibration. See Table 3, footnote 4."

Table 3 footnote 4 states "Class 1 and 2 instruments shall have a minimum sesnitivity of 1°F (1°C). Class 3 through 6 instruments shall have a minimum sensitivity of 3°F (2°C)."

Can anyone explain what "minimum sensitivity" is? I see nothing on my calibration certs that specifies sensitivity. I'm afraid I'm looking at a finding on an upcomming Nadcap Audit. Any help will be greatly appreciated.
Sensitivity as I am applying it in an AMS2750D Oven type 5 instrumentation type Analog chart recorder is the lowest amount of signal required to cause a change in the readout of the UUT. So if the instrument requires less than the specified maximum amount for a change to be observed it would be considered passing.
 
A

Ahoffman

#10
Just so that everyone is aware the requirement to perform a TUS on drying equipment used over 250°F is new in the chem processing checklists. We checked on our customer requirements for drying temperatures and found that we do not have to dry anything at or above 250°F. We wrote into our procedures that the requirement will be incorporated if it becomes necessary to change our drying temps. Not that we don't want to comply but our ovens are not that new and would need some work to get them to comply with furnace class requirements in AMS2750. (We don't dry paint - only for NDT cleaning processes).
 
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