QMS Overview based on the diagram in the front of the ISO standard

N

Neale T

#1
I've been putting together a QMS for my company based on the diagram in the front of the ISO standard. Would anyone care to have a look and cast a critical eye over it? Any comments would be more than welcome.
 

Attachments

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#3
Hi Neale,

I used that same diagram as a model and was going to attach to this post, but can't figure out how to do it. Will email to you is you send address.


Sue:frust:
 
E

energy

#4
Any comments?

Jim,

Any constructive comments on Sue's attachments? Yes, I've been looking at them all. These, too are pretty clean. I suspect that there may not be enough detail to suit you. Just askin, Compadre!
:ko: :smokin:
 
M

M Greenaway

#5
To my mind these diagrams are far too bland to be of any useful purpose to an organisation.

That is not to say that you may well get your ISO9001 certificate on production of such a diagram in your quality manual for meeting the requirement to define process sequence and interaction.

But what honest use are they ?

Have they helped you understand your processes ?

Personally I would like to get something out of this ISO9001 requirement, which is why I prefer a more detailed process mapping such as IDEF0. But as we are discussing this very issue in another thread I wont do a re-run here.
 
#6
Hi All,

I'm also working on a "Product Flow" that I fell may be of benefit to the auditors. See attachment (if I get this right)!

As for this company understanding their processes - they have 50 employees (an avg. retention time of 15 yrs) and are celebrating 50 yrs in business. I believe they understand their processes quite well. :)

Sue
 

Attachments

#7
Hi Jim,

Glad you caught the fact that I stuck arrows between Purchasing, Maintenance and Training - can now fix that before the BIG DAY!

As for the simplicity of the whole thing, I actually based it on this article Making the Transition from QS-9000 to TS 16949.

I realize there are no inputs/outputs, but I've pulled teeth to get this much. :frust:

Sue
 
E

energy

#8
Good one

Sue said:

Hi All,

As for this company understanding their processes - they have 50 employees (an avg. retention time of 15 yrs) and are celebrating 50 yrs in business. I believe they understand their processes quite well. :)

Sue
Agreed, Sue. That's where I get aggravated with this whole concept. Imagine someone saying that you don't
demonstrate the understanding of processes adequately to them. I'm not talking about people here in the Cove. This is a discussion forum. I'm talking about the external party assessing your business to see if you comply with the standard. It stinks. But, it's the path we chose. or more likely, Management chose.
Keep up the good posts.;) :ko: :smokin:
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#9
Sue said:

As for this company understanding their processes - they have 50 employees (an avg. retention time of 15 yrs) and are celebrating 50 yrs in business. I believe they understand their processes quite well. :)

Sue
Martin and Jim are less than thrilled with the diagrams Sue posted. But Sue made a powerful point (at least to me) -- the people at her company KNOW their processes pretty darn well with a 15 year avg. tenure and 50 years in business. It seems to me they just are having a hard time explaining and presenting them as well as they know them. I suspect this is a very common issue. I have not done this exercise yet, but I expect I will have the same issues.

So, I ask Jim, Martin, and whomever else whats to chime in:

What real-world, bottom-line benefit(s) can Sue's company expect get out of spending lots of time and effort (and, therefore, money) on creating what you guys and/or other "ISO experts" might consider exquisitely perfect process flows, seeing as they must know the processes pretty darn well already based on Sue's statement? Serious question -- I'm trying to run the cost/benefit analysis in my own mind, but I am running short on the benefit side.
 
M

M Greenaway

#10
Mike

I agree with what you say on the usefullness of this exercise - what are the benefits ?

If we create a bland business model, which many are doing, then the benefits are probably none, other than achieving ISO9001 certification which it probably will suffice for.

But the technique of process mapping does help us understand our processes, and put us in a position to make improvements based on reduction of waste and increased efficiency. They can also help us identify potential causes of non-conformance if we have sufficient detail, as normally our first question on identification of a problem is 'what is the process' and 'where in the process has the problem escaped from'. Also detailed process mapping is an important first step in constructing FMEA studies, which is an excellent preventive tool. I could do none of these things with a bland business diagram.

Admittedly in small organisations the understanding of the processes may already be in the minds of the process owners. But my own experience of process mapping is that undertaking the task itself does clarify understanding of the process, even if I thought I understood the process already.

It also serves to break down the silo mentality prevelant in just about all departmental organisation structures.
 
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