QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?

[Helmut Jilling]

I have drawn up draft quality manuals for clients and have had them successfully registered to both ISO 9001:2000 and ISO/TS 16949. I'm amazed that you can write that you do this stuff for customers and registrars. What other manuals get written for everyone else but management? No wonder ISO is in decline! We have to get real about this stuff and stop doing it for the wrong people and the wrong reasons. Do it for the folks who count - your own management team. Sure it's hard to get them to buy in - change is always tough! If it hurts, it's probably the right thing to do!
BTW I attach one of my drafts (just for kicking around) - just as an idea, I know it's not perfect but it sure beats 30 pages!
Andy

Andy, I'm a bit confused. I agree you should write the system for the company and the managers, but your policy manual does not define any policies? It has a nice map and all, but where do you address what you do? It only links to the minimum procedures, and none of the documents 4.2.d calls for.

Would you care to clarify? Thanks.

 

[AndyN]

Now I'm confused.........

because I didn't see any need for 'policies'. Where is the need for 'policies'. The draft has a place for a Quality Policy, so which ones are you refering to?
Are you, for example talking about the need to define a policy for each of the requirements of ISO 9001? If so, what benefit to the organization are they? If the TAG's who wrote the standard wanted a policy for each requirement, wouldn't they have defined it in the requirement?
What other documents are you refering to, from 4.2d? This should all be taken care of in lower level (process and sub-process, work instruction types) of documentation, not in the quality manual.
Andy

 

[Helmut Jilling]

because I didn't see any need for 'policies'. Where is the need for 'policies'. The draft has a place for a Quality Policy, so which ones are you refering to?
Are you, for example talking about the need to define a policy for each of the requirements of ISO 9001? If so, what benefit to the organization are they? If the TAG's who wrote the standard wanted a policy for each requirement, wouldn't they have defined it in the requirement?
What other documents are you refering to, from 4.2d? This should all be taken care of in lower level (process and sub-process, work instruction types) of documentation, not in the quality manual.
Andy

It seems unclear what the purpose of what the "manual" is there for. The manual is just there to address the requirement to have a manual, but what does it do? By the way, I agree the other documents can be "lower level" though I don't know if TS particularly addresses the old multi level pyramid of documents. I think it regrds them as documents, which is fine.

But, what is the purpose of the manual? It doesn't address very much. There may need to be more in define the interlinks between processes as well. Recent witness auditors have required more detail than that, I am told. ...my two cents...

 

[AndyN]

The purpose of the manual is.........

to descibe the quality management system of the organinzation, inlcuding its scope, etc, the objectives by which its performance is to be measured, detail something about the organization, management 'structure' and so forth. I have yet to see any manual fashioned around the ISO (or similar) requirements to be of any value. These types of manual are normally created by a single person to meet the needs of some outsider, as you say, "Recent witness auditors have required more detail than that, I am told." There we go again! Who are we writing this for? If some external auditor wants more detail, push back is my advice!
Andy

 

[Helmut Jilling]

to descibe the quality management system of the organinzation, inlcuding its scope, etc, the objectives by which its performance is to be measured, detail something about the organization, management 'structure' and so forth. I have yet to see any manual fashioned around the ISO (or similar) requirements to be of any value. These types of manual are normally created by a single person to meet the needs of some outsider, as you say, "Recent witness auditors have required more detail than that, I am told." There we go again! Who are we writing this for? If some external auditor wants more detail, push back is my advice!
Andy

I do agree with you in principle, but I may disagree in execution. I think the approach is a little bit thin. Even a lot thin. But, we can disagree on that. I certainly agree that it should be for the company, but I don't leave out the fact it has to be audited as well.

 

[AndyN]

No problem with external auditors.........

buying into the idea of a smaller, thinner manual. I've got a number of clients who've not got a 'conventional 30 pager'! It's just the way it's introduced to the auditor!
Andy

 

[dmp06]

Well, let's see. A title page, table of contents, definitions, and that leaves about one page to describe the management system. Hmm. Maybe your managers need to read the requirements for developing a manual.

Good Luck to you. Obviously they are lacking the commitment to the program, and need to rethink if certification is an option.

dmp

 

[Puzzle]

My 4 pager has no problem with meeting 9001, TS and 14001:2004.

I say if you want a huge manual do it.

We put our efforts into the operating side of things, and I for one am not going to re-issue the manual for the ongoing system maintenace that is always required.

 

[dmp06]

Well Good Luck to you with your manual.

 

[db]

Well, let's see. A title page, table of contents, definitions, and that leaves about one page to describe the management system. Hmm. Maybe your managers need to read the requirements for developing a manual.

Good Luck to you. Obviously they are lacking the commitment to the program, and need to rethink if certification is an option.

dmp

Okay, I argue. Forget the cover page and table of contents. With a one page QM, you need neither. The same goes for the definitions. None of the above are required. Looking at the requirements in 4.2.2, a single page QM is possible. But as hjilling asked: "...what is the purpose of the manual? " If the manual is for internal use only, then a one pager may be adequate. If the manual is going to customers and external customers, you will probably need to add a lot. Remember to look at who is using the manual, and for what. If you need more than four pages, either your system must be really complex, you have a lot of non-required information to provide to the outside, or you have a lot of fluff that is probably not requried.