QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?

[Old Quality Gal]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Very nicely stated, Quality Gal. It distresses me that this whole thread has been on the meaningless question of "how many pages" as if that mattered. Is there a paper shortage I haven't heard about?

It's the content that matters, folks! And, Quality Gal hit the content discussion squarely in the head!

PS: Is that 2 Guinness' I owe you now?

Hey who is counting!

 

[brandwood]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

The key issue is put very well by...

My position, rightly or wrongly, is that the QA Manual is all about painting a conceptual picture of my business as it relates to the standard and responsibilities. I strive to keep that fairly static. I reserve my energy and press for detail and strong change management around my procedures and

I see the Quality Manual as a kind of corporate CV - it sets out what you are trying to be and do at a very high level - and should be fairly static - a touch stone if you like.

The detail is more appropriately placed and more easily controlled in Level 1 and 2.

Arthur

 

[pog451]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

My superiors feel the manual should only be 3 or 4 pages long. Most of this reasoning is from different companies who have claimed to be certified.
Am I wrong in assuming a 3 or 4 page manual would not be adequate, and what exactly would be accurate?
Thanks, Dawn

Hi Dawn,

It depends of course on your exact company structure but a colleague in a firm I used to work for managed to write a fully certifiable TS 16949 handbook that ran to six pages. It was not only certifiable but was passed at his next re-audit, so such things are possible. His trick was to really look at his core processes and design a very neat and concise flow chart, which he then only really added comments to. Of course, work instructions, control plans etc were not included in that, so the entire QMS Documentation was more than six pages, but the handbook itself was short.

When I worked for a major german electrical company, their QMS (ISO 9001:1994) documentation was split into levels and neither the divisional nor the plant handbooks were more than 20 pages for a very complex organisation.

Personally Im a big fan of conciseness, at the least the company Ive just joind has only three files of Documentation, a big step up from the seven at my last company ;-(

andy M

 

[Old Quality Gal]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

He was an old style 1994 auditor - spent more time pouring through procedures than asking questions. Unfortunately I had calmed many of this organizations fears of ISO, and an auditor with this attitude made them comment "this is what we were afraid of." As it turns out one of the unique ways we addressed the standard in their quality manual was by putting a matrix in the appendix of their manual listing the ISO requirements and the internal documents that addressed it. For Infrastructure and Work Environment we referenced the Management Meeting minutes. That's when he said "you can't throw minutes in front of me to prove you meet a requirement. That's not acceptable."

What can an org do when they know they are right, but the more they question the auditor he was displaying extreme aggrivation and raising his voice to the point of the org worrying if they are going to get recommended for registration or not.

I encounter this all the time.
I won't get on my "auditors ain't what they used to be soapbox" but I will say I have lodged formal challenges with both registrars and their certification body and have never had a situation where I lost competely. Most of the time I was supported and worst case I had to meet the auditor in the middle but he had to modify his position as well.
Again I lobby for seperate manual and documentation reviews from the initial on site visit. I want to correct the documentation or fight for my position independant of the stress and constraint of the on-site audit.
I also will not let them continue the audit and unload on findings only at the wash-up meeting. That is some crap. You have the right to explain yourself or ( in the case of a major finding) offer immediate actions that can reduce it to a minor.
I make it clear at the beginning of the audit and the one auditor that blew me off and did it anyway I put in writing to the registrar I never wanted him back in my facility and why. We had a different auditor the next year.
YOU ARE PAYING THEM! YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER! You are paying for a knowledgable, thorough auditor that will provide you with an honest assessment of your QSM based on the boundries and content of the relevant standards. You are not there to please them or for your company to deliver their vision of compliance.
A good auditor tries to see your reasoning and logic in content of your approach to compliance. If it fits and is prudent their opinion is just that!
I also make cure I get a resume for every auditor coming under my roof and have even conducted phone interviews before they showed up.
I have rejected some auditors and said they didn't measure up on paper.
I am a reasonable person but have little patience for people who do not know how to do their job!
Ooh did this hit a nerve for me???? Yes I think so!
Regards,
Mary

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I encounter this all the time.
I won't get on my "auditors ain't what they used to be soapbox" but I will say I have lodged formal challenges with both registrars and their certification body and have never had a situation where I lost competely. Most of the time I was supported and worst case I had to meet the auditor in the middle but he had to modify his position as well.
Again I lobby for seperate manual and documentation reviews from the initial on site visit. I want to correct the documentation or fight for my position independant of the stress and constraint of the on-site audit.
I also will not let them continue the audit and unload on findings only at the wash-up meeting. That is some crap. You have the right to explain yourself or ( in the case of a major finding) offer immediate actions that can reduce it to a minor.
I make it clear at the beginning of the audit and the one auditor that blew me off and did it anyway I put in writing to the registrar I never wanted him back in my facility and why. We had a different auditor the next year.
YOU ARE PAYING THEM! YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER! You are paying for a knowledgable, thorough auditor that will provide you with an honest assessment of your QSM based on the boundries and content of the relevant standards. You are not there to please them or for your company to deliver their vision of compliance.
A good auditor tries to see your reasoning and logic in content of your approach to compliance. If it fits and is prudent their opinion is just that!
I also make cure I get a resume for every auditor coming under my roof and have even conducted phone interviews before they showed up.
I have rejected some auditors and said they didn't measure up on paper.
I am a reasonable person but have little patience for people who do not know how to do their job!
Ooh did this hit a nerve for me???? Yes I think so!
Regards,
Mary

Amen...now... get your blood pressure back down...

You are again, absolutely correct.

 

[JaneB]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

What can an org do when they know they are right, but the more they question the auditor he was displaying extreme aggrivation and raising his voice to the point of the org worrying if they are going to get recommended for registration or not.

Horrible situation, isn't it? I've had this happen on a few occasions.

What I do is:
1. Attempt to deal with the situation if possible - eg, by attempting to discuss their interpretation/understand what they're saying, so I can demonstrate more evidence. That means I must know the Standard(s) in question at least as well as they do
2. Be prepared to provide evidence in support of up anything I disagree with them about.
3. If they start to behave badly (eg, I think extreme aggravation and a raised voice = unacceptable behaviour), I would either:
a/ terminate the audit, ask them to leave, or
b/ agree to disagree.
Either way, my next step would be: immediately contact the organisation & their Technical Manager & notify them of the problem.

You'd need to make sure *your* blood pressure is reasonable, and stick strictly to objective facts in putting your case.

4. Give the organisation the benefit of the doubt - allow them to try to fix the situation. If they aren't able/willing... then switch to a certifier that can. (This time, taking a lot of care in selection!)

I strongly support Quality Gal's view:

YOU ARE PAYING THEM! YOU ARE THE CUSTOMER!

You are paying for a knowledgable, thorough auditor that will provide you with an honest assessment of your QSM based on the boundries and content of the relevant standards. You are not there to please them or for your company to deliver their vision of compliance.

Absolutely. It's yourcompany - not theirs! And the certifier must provide a knowledgeable, thorough and competent auditor. ISO 19011 has plenty of information about what an auditor should be, attributes, conduct of audit, etc.

A good auditor tries to see your reasoning and logic in content of your approach to compliance. If it fits and is prudent their opinion is just that!

Couldn't agree more.

I also make sure I get a resume for every auditor coming under my roof and have even conducted phone interviews before they showed up.
I have rejected some auditors and said they didn't measure up on paper.
I am a reasonable person but have little patience for people who do not know how to do their job!

Well said.

 

[QA_4_30yrs]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

What was that about not getting on your soap box? I agree totally.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Back to agreement!

You know, there is an ad-hoc group of people working under the auspices of the TC-176 developing material to assist adequate auditing techniques. The material is available at http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/fetch/2000/2122/138402/138403/3541460/customview.html?func=ll&objId=3541460&objAction=browse&sort=name.

One of the documents developed is titled: "How to add value during the audit process" and it is available at http://isotc.iso.org/livelink/livelink/3553372/APG-HowtoAddValue.doc?func=doc.Fetch&nodeid=3553372 .

One of the litmus tests in order to check if a finding is adding value to the organization, is the question:
"...Will the solution proposed by the organization in response to negative findings be useful? . . ."
I am curious if you were to ask this auditor how much better the organization in question would be, after they revise the manual to include what he wants, what his response would be....

This is very true. One of my gripes with audits (and auditors) is they both become the be all and end all of any system and are given undue priority in that system - whereas any other system prioritizes the design bit (the getting it right first time).

Plan above Check if you like.

.... and this from an auditor!

 

[CHRSCLLNGS]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

When I joined my present company early last year, we had 26 controlled copies of the Quality Manual and Quality Procedures scattered around the plant (1 in each section) I had 4 in my shelves (Quality copy, Master copy, Auditors copy and 1 spare). This is great as everyone can look at it, but when I came to change ! section, I had to recall, edit, rebind and reissue all 26 copies. NOW I have 3 copies, 1 for the shopfloor, 1 for me and 1 for the MD

 

[DavidO - 2011]

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I usually put a single page manual in, have been through a few certification audits with the format, no problems so far.

you will all want a copy but i'm not posting one (yet), i will say just read the standard and create what it asks for. Forget the QS9000 days and think out of the box a little.

It can actually cover half a page of A4 but it is still "1 page"


David