SBS - The best value in QMS software

QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?

How many pages is your QMS Manual?

  • 1 to 5 Pages

    Votes: 6 3.7%
  • 6 to 10 Pages

    Votes: 11 6.7%
  • 11 to 15 Pages

    Votes: 17 10.4%
  • 16 to 20 Pages

    Votes: 21 12.8%
  • 21 to 25 Pages

    Votes: 21 12.8%
  • 25 to 30 Pages

    Votes: 12 7.3%
  • 31 to 35 Pages

    Votes: 16 9.8%
  • 36 to 40 Pages

    Votes: 15 9.1%
  • 41 to 45 Pages

    Votes: 9 5.5%
  • 46 to 50 Pages

    Votes: 8 4.9%
  • 51 to 60 Pages

    Votes: 19 11.6%
  • Resembles Juran's Handbook

    Votes: 6 3.7%
  • We have no manual per se

    Votes: 3 1.8%

  • Total voters
    164
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Welcome to the Cove, CHRSCLLNGS :bigwave:
NOW I have 3 copies, 1 for the shopfloor, 1 for me and 1 for the MD
I hear you. We now have one original (I have it), and that's it... all seven pages of it. It is available to all staff via our intranet, and to others on request.

/Claes
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

CHRSCLLNGS

Involved In Discussions
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I would love that Claes, but we don't have an intranet, or a real IT department to set one up. I have a 30 page Manual AND a 60 page Procedures Manual! These were,
cheekily, given to my predecessor by an un-named party who comes in annually!
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I would love that Claes, but we don't have an intranet, or a real IT department to set one up. I have a 30 page Manual AND a 60 page Procedures Manual! These were,
cheekily, given to my predecessor by an un-named party who comes in annually!
Your previous post said you had 26 copies of these. Can you at least have those who have computer access use it from the server and reduce the number of books to 10 or less?

I don't think the focus should be on numbe rof pages, I think it should be content. Somewhere, your QMS must have content, else the number of pages you ahve doesn't matter. But, at elast you could reduce the number of copies.
 
J

JaneB

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I don't think the focus should be on number of pages, I think it should be content. Somewhere, your QMS must have content, else the number of pages you have doesn't matter.
Couldn't agree more. The number of pages is utterly irrelevant and completely immaterial - what's right for one organisation won't be for another.

What matters is that the documentation has appropriate content and suits the needs of the particular organisation.

Any decision on documentation (including that quality manual) always has to take into account key issues of purpose and audience, as well as context - what technology exists (if any)? Online or hardcopy? Small or big? Intranet delivery is, for example, useless to any site where people work outdoors or in physical conditions (eg, mine site); similarly, in a small organisation, a single skinny little manual may be perfectly fine. It always depends.

But content - ah, that's always critical.
 
P

pog451

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Couldn't agree more. The number of pages is utterly irrelevant and completely immaterial
I think we are probably in agreement but I still have a major problem with this statement. Content is all, different organisations will have different needs and different sizes of documentation and size is certainly not a valid comparator between systems.

HOWEVER! ;-)

The number of pages is not irrelevant because at some point people in your organisation are going to have to actually read at least parts of your handbook. The more concise and to the point it is, the more they will be prepared to actually read it and the easier they will understand it. "As much as necessary, as little as possible". A 20-volume documentation will be regarded as the plaything of the Quality Manager. A 20-Page Manual will almost always get more buy-in from the shop-floor or its equivalent (That all? Hey, thats easy. I can do that...)

For me this is exactly the advantage of ISO 900x:2000 and the new TS 16949 over the old 20 paragraphs struff - You dont haveto describe things you dont intend to need.
 
R

Rick W UK

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I have a supplement document to the QM which is available to print hard copy ( 9 pages)the bulk of our QMS (or Business Management System ) as we are now calling it is a web based one on our intranet. The acual standard does not actually say the QM needs to be a document in its own right.
It's not one of the required 6 documented procedures after all.
We all know a QMS is a documented management system not a system of documents
 
J

JaneB

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

The more concise and to the point it is, the more they will be prepared to actually read it and the easier they will understand it. "As much as necessary, as little as possible".
Absolutely agree. Something I've written about exhaustively in many posts.

Look, I think we're in strong agreement. But I stand by my statement of number of pages being irrelevant. Perhaps I confused by leaving out the all-important proviso 'provided it's as clear and usuable and short as possible' , then the number of pages is irrelevant.

I continue to argue against using number of pages alone as a fully valid or useful measure.

I've seen 'short' documents of pages which were virtually unreadable. Not necessarily because of content, but achieved by squeezing stuff onto pages: they had tiny margins, used ALL CAPITALS WHICH ARE JUST ABOUT IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE HUMAN EYE TO READ EASILY, close-spaced type, tiny fonts, no spaces between paragraphs, etc, few headings.

Whereas the same document spread over perhaps twice as many pages - but using good graphic/ desktop principles like wide margins, plenty of white space, upper & lower case, suitable headings, tables instead of text perhaps, and so on - transformed the same document into something that people could actually pick up without their heart sinking into their boots.

Same thing for PowerPoint demos - short alone isn't an adequate metric.

I aim always but always for as short as possible - but taking the needs of the particular organisation, its people, its culture and principles of usability and good document design always into account also.

I want people to read & use the documents, yes.

Otherwise there's simply no point whatsover.

WAFTAM. (The polite version of which is: Waste of Flipping Time and Money) ;)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
A

arin_23

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Hi Buddy !!!!

Possible...........

The 3-4 page quality manual will have only one or two lines each about all the clauses covered as per the QMS activity and all the clause should point to separate documents mentioning about the respective activities either described in flow charts or procedures as per ISO 9001:2000 requirements.

In this process the quality manual will become slim and trim and the other doceumentaions will become hefty.

Rather non-conventional...huh??????;)

Cheers:cool:

Arindam
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Hi Buddy !!!!

Possible...........

The 3-4 page quality manual will have only one or two lines each about all the clauses covered as per the QMS activity and all the clause should point to separate documents mentioning about the respective activities either described in flow charts or procedures as per ISO 9001:2000 requirements.

In this process the quality manual will become slim and trim and the other doceumentaions will become hefty.

Rather non-conventional...huh??????;)

Cheers:cool:

Arindam

In my opinion, that makes the Quality Manual essentially a 4 page Table of Contents. However, you have many procedures. An alternative would be that at least half of those other procedures could probably be contained within the Quality Manual, and you could reduce the excess documents.

Either approach ends up in a similar place though. The focus should be on content, not number of pages.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
John Predmore Explain Quality Management System (QMS) for the uninitiated ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
T IATF 16949 Quality Management System (QMS) Scope Requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
A QMS (Quality Management System) for Logistic Agency ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
D Where does the QMS (Quality Management System) fit in your organization? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
P What is a QMS (Quality Management System), really? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 18
0 Feedback on proposed restructure of Quality Management System (QMS) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 21
K The differences between ISO 9001 vs a QMS (Quality Management System) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
F How to set-up a Dual Company QMS (Quality Management System) Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 2
A Software Tools for managing a QMS (Quality Management System) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
L Processes required for the Quality Management System (QMS) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 15
Q Where to include the SIPOC results in QMS (Quality Management System)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
C Shortcomings of Compliance Focus Quality Management System (QMS) Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 3
S QMS (Quality Management System) and Calibration Procedure ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 20
M Building an AS9100 QMS (Quality Management System) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 21
J Difference between Management System and QMS (Quality Management System) General Auditing Discussions 5
J Supplier Quality Management System (QMS) Audit - Formal Documented QMS does not exist ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
B Where do policies fit in the setting up of a Quality Management System (QMS)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
S Marketing Process as part of QMS (Quality Management System)? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
C How do you measure the Effectiveness of a QMS (Quality Management System) Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 34
S Including Product Trade-Ins in our Quality Management System (QMS) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
O QMS (Quality Management Systems) Team Structure & Responsibilities ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
W Sustaining a TS16949 QMS (Quality Management System) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
Y Training on the Basics of a QMS (Quality Management System) for ISO 13485 Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
D QMS (Quality Management System) on Intranet - Business Case ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
Marc Definition QMS - Quality Management System - Definition Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 0
J Sitting Back and Reflecting on ISO 9001 QMS (Quality Management System) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
R BMS Vs QMS (Business Management Vs Quality Management System) AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 6
J Building the QMS (Quality Management System): Getting Started Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 16
G Requirements for Implementing an ISO 9001:2008 Quality Management System (QMS) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
L Definition Quality Management System (QMS) as per ISO 9000:2005 - Definition of Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 3
V ISO 9001 QMS (quality management system) for MBA College ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
N Help a newbie to develop a QMS (Quality Management System) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 50
Q QMS (Quality Management System) Fundamentals Training Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
G Must the QMS Management Representative be part of the quality department? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 23
Pancho Interesting Discussion Using a Wiki to implement a Quality Management System (QMS) Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 273
O QMS (Quality Management System) in a Project Implementation Organisation Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 3
I Developing Quality Objectives for a Quality Management System (QMS) Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 7
K Quality Management System (QMS) Echo Training or Refresher ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
P Creating a New QMS (Quality Management System) from Old AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5
M Evaluating my QMS (Quality Management System) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 11
Q Writing a QMS (Quality Management System) Manual from Scratch Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 2
R ERP/MRP system as part of the QMS (Quality Management System) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 24
F Training Employees on the QMS (Quality Management System) Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 4
Q How can I make the QMS (Quality Management System) interesting to employees? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 38
B When is a QMS not a "Quality" Management System? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
T QMS (Quality Management System) for a business support organisation ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
K Quality Management System (QMS) audit checklist needed General Auditing Discussions 3
F Quality Management System vs. Effects of Local Culture on Implementing a QMS Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 22
P How to Assess the Effectiveness of the QMS (Quality Management System) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 12
L What TYPES of documents are in your QMS (Quality Management System)? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 7

Similar threads

Top Bottom