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QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?

How many pages is your QMS Manual?

  • 1 to 5 Pages

    Votes: 6 3.8%
  • 6 to 10 Pages

    Votes: 11 6.9%
  • 11 to 15 Pages

    Votes: 17 10.6%
  • 16 to 20 Pages

    Votes: 21 13.1%
  • 21 to 25 Pages

    Votes: 21 13.1%
  • 25 to 30 Pages

    Votes: 11 6.9%
  • 31 to 35 Pages

    Votes: 15 9.4%
  • 36 to 40 Pages

    Votes: 15 9.4%
  • 41 to 45 Pages

    Votes: 9 5.6%
  • 46 to 50 Pages

    Votes: 8 5.0%
  • 51 to 60 Pages

    Votes: 18 11.3%
  • Resembles Juran's Handbook

    Votes: 6 3.8%
  • We have no manual per se

    Votes: 2 1.3%

  • Total voters
    160
N

Neserae

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

We are in the process of revamping our system and it has become quite a stressful process. We are either want to go whole hog one way or the other and there is no middle gournd. One of the biggest issues we are having now is "How do you define what is a controlled document and what isn't?" Our third party auditor has emphatically stated that all documents should be controlled but we seem to be spending all of our time looking for excuses not to control documents. Wouldn't it be easier to define all documents as controlled and those documents which people feel shouldn't be controlled should not even exist....HELP!!!!!!
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

This is an interesting point.

Ponder this:

If you had an instruction manual for something you personally cared about - let's say your car - would you read it? Would you read it cover to cover? Would you read it more than once - cover to cover? More importantly - do you believe than everyone that gets such a manual reads it cover to cover? If not, why not?

The next point is, then, when would you read it, and what information would you expect to get out of it if you did? What is 'meat' to a user - not an auditor. This is not to demean what the auditors are looking for, but rather systemically are we missing the point of the quality manual by essentially writing them for the wrong audience.

I think systemically we are getting trapped into writing a QMS instruction book with the Standard - and its interpreters (auditors) - as the audience, not the end user. The OP's boss may be conceptually correct - but unless the external system embraces that concept, he will be out of luck.

I agree. I did not mean that people would sit and read it as a book. I meant more on a section by section, as needed basis, or a basis for training on certain topics. My concern is most manuals don't say anything worth reading, and never have, this, most people do not read them.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

We are in the process of revamping our system and it has become quite a stressful process. We are either want to go whole hog one way or the other and there is no middle gournd. One of the biggest issues we are having now is "How do you define what is a controlled document and what isn't?" Our third party auditor has emphatically stated that all documents should be controlled but we seem to be spending all of our time looking for excuses not to control documents. Wouldn't it be easier to define all documents as controlled and those documents which people feel shouldn't be controlled should not even exist....HELP!!!!!!
I agree. It is simpler to control all information. However, define a few simple, easy, clear and quick ways to control documents. Then, there is no incentive to avoid doc control.
 

Pancho

wikineer
Super Moderator
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

We are in the process of revamping our system and it has become quite a stressful process. We are either want to go whole hog one way or the other and there is no middle gournd. One of the biggest issues we are having now is "How do you define what is a controlled document and what isn't?" Our third party auditor has emphatically stated that all documents should be controlled but we seem to be spending all of our time looking for excuses not to control documents. Wouldn't it be easier to define all documents as controlled and those documents which people feel shouldn't be controlled should not even exist....HELP!!!!!!
Hi, Neserae,

This thread might be useful to you: Controlled Document - What constitutes a controlled document?

Also, you might think about using a wiki to implement your QMS.

Pancho
 
O

Obstacle3

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I am setting up a QMS on an intranet site.

I dont see the point in rehashing the entire standard, so I am intending to address the 4.2.2 requirements.

I am looking at less than 20 pages.

Am I wrong in thinking it is pointless regurgitating the entire standard in the Manual?

...it defeats the purpose IMHO.

I want the document to be readable, streamlined and most importantly used. I can't see anybody reading a 100 page rehash of the standard with statements saying "We meet this, we do that etc".
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I am setting up a QMS on an intranet site.

I dont see the point in rehashing the entire standard, so I am intending to address the 4.2.2 requirements.

I am looking at less than 20 pages.

Am I wrong in thinking it is pointless regurgitating the entire standard in the Manual?

...it defeats the purpose IMHO.

I want the document to be readable, streamlined and most importantly used. I can't see anybody reading a 100 page rehash of the standard with statements saying "We meet this, we do that etc".
1. An intranet can be an excellent approach because it eliminates a lot of doc control issues.

2. The standard is only 20+ pages, so it wouldn't be "a 100 page rehash."

3. If all you do is "rehash the standard" then it might not serve much benefit to put it in anyway. However, I am currently writing a manual for a client, and we are actually adapting the whole 9004 version of the standard. That's 50 pages. But, it contains good content, and we are editing and rewriting the requirements we wish to adapt, and adding explanation, and additional content personalized for the client. In my view, that approach DOES add a lot of value.

4. Our manual will also meet the need for procedures, because many of them will be incorporated into the same manual.

This approach is not necessarily the only way to do it, but I think it is an excellent approach.
 
Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I am setting up a QMS on an intranet site.

I dont see the point in rehashing the entire standard, so I am intending to address the 4.2.2 requirements.

I am looking at less than 20 pages.

Am I wrong in thinking it is pointless regurgitating the entire standard in the Manual?

...it defeats the purpose IMHO.

I want the document to be readable, streamlined and most importantly used. I can't see anybody reading a 100 page rehash of the standard with statements saying "We meet this, we do that etc".
Bear in mind that you do not need a separate "manual" - if your system description is on-line, and it includes all the information required for the "manual", then you have met the requirements.
 
R

Romel Cacatian

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

I have implemented a web based document control. Documents are converted to PDF files. User can view the files but cannot print it so I have a better control of the documents. I am now researching on how to add a intranet search engine that will show the links when a user input keywords that are present on a pdf document.

I agree with obstacle3 when he said "I want the document to be readable, streamlined and most importantly used.". Documents must be easily accessible to users in the same way like Googling for information on the internet.
 
L

lucasso

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

IMO a quality manual is just a re-print of the standard (QS), including customer requirements with the "shalls" and "shoulds" removed and replaced with the present tense. Include a procedure reference with each requirement and you're done.
Number of pages, double sideed, 25-50.
Exactly my thoughts.
 
J

JaneB

Re: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to

Exactly my thoughts.
Variations of this topic have been extensively debated on the Cove.

Opinions remain strongly divided between the parties who subscribe to this view point, and the other parties who hold this to be an absolute waste of time and to deliver zilch value at all. I hold strongly firmly to the latter view.

For some of the lengthy discussions, see this thread: (the title doesn't really reflect the turn the discussion took, alas, and a good illustration of why the Cove tries to keep a discussion consistent with its thread title) Updated Quality Manual for 2008

and this one: Who Actually Uses the Quality Manual
 
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