QMS standard behind / under VDA?

M

mfennema

#1
Like many people before me, it seems, I have become involved with making sure we meet the requirements of VDA 6.3 et al.

I understand how 6.3 fits into VDA Part 6: 6.3 describes how to conduct process audits; Part 6 is all about audits. I understand how VDA Part 6 fits into the general VDA Part X architecture: Part 6 is all about audits; other parts describe other requirements, which include control of documents / records, PPAP, etc. I get that. (Though please correct me if I'm wrong.)

These standards all describe _parts_ of a quality management system, but I don't see any document, like TS 16949, that actually defines _all_ the requirements of the management system.

Am I misreading? Or have I not read enough? Is the full VDA QMS defined somewhere--and if so, where--or is it just the sum of its parts?

Thanks.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
L

lk2012

#2
Hi,
I think you've summarized the VDA system quite well in your initial message.
As far as the 6.3 unit goes, there does not seem to be such thing as a 'VDA standard' like TS or ISO is. When I do a VDA 6.3 audit, I refer to TS, AIAG manual (for rules on PPAP, FMEA etc), industry or customer-specific standards (heat-treatment norms etc).
If I'm wrong and there is a VDA standard, I'd love to get my hands on it! And it's not a sarcasm, honestly.
Hope this helps
Lil
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#3
Like many people before me, it seems, I have become involved with making sure we meet the requirements of VDA 6.3 et al.

I understand how 6.3 fits into VDA Part 6: 6.3 describes how to conduct process audits; Part 6 is all about audits. I understand how VDA Part 6 fits into the general VDA Part X architecture: Part 6 is all about audits; other parts describe other requirements, which include control of documents / records, PPAP, etc. I get that. (Though please correct me if I'm wrong.)

These standards all describe _parts_ of a quality management system, but I don't see any document, like TS 16949, that actually defines _all_ the requirements of the management system.

Am I misreading? Or have I not read enough? Is the full VDA QMS defined somewhere--and if so, where--or is it just the sum of its parts?

Thanks.
VDA 6.1 was the QMS standard, but has been replaced by ISO/TS 16949.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#4
VDA 6.1 was the QMS standard, but has been replaced by ISO/TS 16949.

I have had several clients who have customers who are doing a detailed supply chain audit on their systems using a detailed checklist titled VDA 6.3. The checklist is not really process approach, and it does go beyond TS-16949 requirements.

I thought TS was going to obsolete VDA, but apparently some German OEs like Volkswagen are keeping it alive as a CSR. I recommend you get a copy of your customer's VDA checksheet and add it to your internal audit as a supplement...
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#5
I have had several clients who have customers who are doing a detailed supply chain audit on their systems using a detailed checklist titled VDA 6.3. The checklist is not really process approach, and it does go beyond TS-16949 requirements.

I thought TS was going to obsolete VDA, but apparently some German OEs like Volkswagen are keeping it alive as a CSR. I recommend you get a copy of your customer's VDA checksheet and add it to your internal audit as a supplement...
I am not aware that TS was going to replace VDA, it would be impossible. VDA has over 20 different standards.

VDA is a lot more than just 6.1. "VDA checksheet" is ambiguous. So what is the VDA checksheet you are referring to?

6.3 was updated to the 2nd edition in 2010 and touches on the process approach.

Moreover TS does not specify what standards to use for product planning, product approval and measurement system analysis for example. Those are specified in the CSR and every OEM has the liberty to define what standards to use beyond TS.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#6
I am not aware that TS was going to replace VDA, it would be impossible. VDA has over 20 different standards.

VDA is a lot more than just 6.1. "VDA checksheet" is ambiguous. So what is the VDA checksheet you are referring to?

6.3 was updated to the 2nd edition in 2010 and touches on the process approach.

Moreover TS does not specify what standards to use for product planning, product approval and measurement system analysis for example. Those are specified in the CSR and every OEM has the liberty to define what standards to use beyond TS.
As you know, in the 90's the USA OE's used QS-9000, and Europe used VDA. The intent of TS was to combine the whole world OE's into a single automotive standard - TS-16949. For many years, over here in the US, we heard very little about the VDA standard after that.

In recent years, a few of my clients reported that their German customers were starting to do supply-chain audits on them, using a VDA 6.3 checksheet. It gradually took on steam, and I heard recently that VW was imposing it on many or most of their supply chain. This has caused the tier 1's to apply it to their supply chains as well.

I have only seen one such checksheet. I assume it could be considered a CSR. But it was titled VDA 6.3, and it was very much a "checksheet" style audit applied to my clients, not a process approach audit. A gap analysis with 80+ questions. Half of them were covered by TS and the other half went beyond TS to other imposed requirements. The first pass for one of my clients was pretty ugly, with dozens of findings against requirements no one told them were requirements to be implemented. Not in the CSR either, as far as I could see. Ironically, the customer auditor admitted a lot of suppliers were complaining that they had not been informed about these new requirements...wow....really? ...imagine that....

Customers can impose new requirements, but there should be a process for communicating these and allowing time to learn and implement them. Springing them on a supplier in an audit is not the way TS is supposed to work!!
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#7
As you know, in the 90's the USA OE's used QS-9000, and Europe used VDA. The intent of TS was to combine the whole world OE's into a single automotive standard - TS-16949. For many years, over here in the US, we heard very little about the VDA standard after that.

In recent years, a few of my clients reported that their German customers were starting to do supply-chain audits on them, using a VDA 6.3 checksheet. It gradually took on steam, and I heard recently that VW was imposing it on many or most of their supply chain. This has caused the tier 1's to apply it to their supply chains as well.

I have only seen one such checksheet. I assume it could be considered a CSR. But it was titled VDA 6.3, and it was very much a "checksheet" style audit applied to my clients, not a process approach audit. A gap analysis with 80+ questions. Half of them were covered by TS and the other half went beyond TS to other imposed requirements. The first pass for one of my clients was pretty ugly, with dozens of findings against requirements no one told them were requirements to be implemented. Not in the CSR either, as far as I could see. Ironically, the customer auditor admitted a lot of suppliers were complaining that they had not been informed about these new requirements...wow....really? ...imagine that....

Customers can impose new requirements, but there should be a process for communicating these and allowing time to learn and implement them. Springing them on a supplier in an audit is not the way TS is supposed to work!!
First of all the use of the term "VDA" is too ambiguous and causes confusing. VDA is an organization, not a standard. For example the VDA has a standard for product approval (similar to PPAP).

1) Besides the German VDA 6.1, the French had their own standard (and I believe the Italians as well). Yes, ISO / TS 16949 was going to commonize the QMS requirements.
2) VDA 6.3 has been around for a long time. I was exposed to both 6.1 and 6.3 in 1999 when Volkswagen audited my company to become a supplier to Volkswagen in Mexico. There was no surprise as it was communicated clearly by VW ahead of time.
3) You are correct that 6.3 goes beyond the TS requirements. 6.3 is not a quality systems audit. It is a process audit, which includes guidance and some best practices. It rates and ranks the supplier. In my opinion, it is a better method than ISO/TS 16949 "comply / not comply" "effective / not effective" result. Based on my experience with doing many 6.3 style audits, the 6.3 process audit does identify the world class suppliers and identifies weaknesses.
4) I also received "panic" inquiries about suppliers getting two day notice from their customer for a 6.3 audit.
5) VDA 6.3 standard is for sale at www.vda-qmc.de.

Lastly, I hear that comment "no one told me" quite often. When I then ask the next question, I often discover that someone in that company dropped the ball (sales? plant manager?).

.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#8
First of all the use of the term "VDA" is too ambiguous and causes confusing. VDA is an organization, not a standard. For example the VDA has a standard for product approval (similar to PPAP).

1) Besides the German VDA 6.1, the French had their own standard (and I believe the Italians as well). Yes, ISO / TS 16949 was going to commonize the QMS requirements.
2) VDA 6.3 has been around for a long time. I was exposed to both 6.1 and 6.3 in 1999 when Volkswagen audited my company to become a supplier to Volkswagen in Mexico. There was no surprise as it was communicated clearly by VW ahead of time.
3) You are correct that 6.3 goes beyond the TS requirements. 6.3 is not a quality systems audit. It is a process audit, which includes guidance and some best practices. It rates and ranks the supplier. In my opinion, it is a better method than ISO/TS 16949 "comply / not comply" "effective / not effective" result. Based on my experience with doing many 6.3 style audits, the 6.3 process audit does identify the world class suppliers and identifies weaknesses.
4) I also received "panic" inquiries about suppliers getting two day notice from their customer for a 6.3 audit.
5) VDA 6.3 standard is for sale at www.vda-qmc.de.

Lastly, I hear that comment "no one told me" quite often. When I then ask the next question, I often discover that someone in that company dropped the ball (sales? plant manager?).

.
There are only two things I did not like about it...

1. I agree it goes beyond the minimum compliance requirements of TS-16949. And generally, that is a good thing. However, the auditor was able to impose and infer a lot of expectations that were interpretive. He imposed things onto the supplier that were not value added, but he "liked" them.

2. This needs to be clearly communicated by customers that they are going to impose it as a CSR, and give suppliers time to review and implement. My client was subjected to a VDA 6.3 customer audit, before they even had a chance to acquire and read the standard. Let alone have time to implement it. That is not how Supply-Chain improvements should happen.

Thanks for sharing...
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
N QMS standard for a research based Organisation Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 1
R QMS Standard appilications on different Defense Sector Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 1
B Declining Standard of QMS Certification process ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 0
Sidney Vianna AS9115 - Aerospace QMS Standard for Deliverable Software AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 13
D Conformance Audit Template/Help - Audit of my QMS to the ISO standard ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 16
J Which is correct: Audit elements of standard or QMS Processes? Internal Auditing 16
K Marketing Procedure in line with ISO 9001:2000 QMS standard needed Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 2
K QMS standard formats - Internship on implementation of QMS in a company Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 4
L Need brief and clear description of ISO 9001 QMS quality standard - Student report ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
N QMS Overview based on the diagram in the front of the ISO standard ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 43
giavannatabbs ISO 9001:2015 Control of Records - QMS Communications? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
B AS9100 Certification Audit Accounting for Additional Customer QMS Requirements AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 15
T Relation between ISMS and QMS for a SaMD Medical Information Technology, Medical Software and Health Informatics 3
T Errors & Omissions in Creating QMS Procedures AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10
T QMS Compliance Department KPIs AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 20
A E-signatures for QMS? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
A Document control system for QMS in Google Drive? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
W Looking for IATF 16949 (and ISO 17025) QMS software Suggestions Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 8
B Does anyone copyright their internal QMS documents? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 24
M Possible topic for Master thesis topic - MDR and QMS ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
A Help understanding what it takes to implement a QMS that is ISO 13485 compliant ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
A New to QMS and regulatory... advice on training/certification? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 1
Q UK QMS Requirements UK Medical Device Regulations 2
B QMS On-Boarding ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
M Questions concerning QMS and/or company specific nonconformance Customer Complaints 2
B ISO cl. 5.3 - Ensuring that the integrity of the QMS is maintained ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
T Scalable QMS AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
J Using an online software to maintain your QMS Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 7
I QMS and ISO 9001 Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 11
E Visual Management Boards & QMS ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 8
S Disparity between Job Descriptions in QMS & Contract ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 7
qualprod Minimize tomention other positions to ease the QMS management ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
S QMS certificate and Samlping EU Medical Device Regulations 0
H Mapping QMS+business processes in a medical device with class I and IIa+b Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 3
Y Must Initial importers have any QMS? US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 1
qualprod QMS global effectiveness? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
Q 13485 QMS turnkey ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
K New to Medical Device QMS and would like advice ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 20
Moncia Integrated QMS and audit Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 5
J New QMS Auditor - seeking opportunities to gain audit experience Career and Occupation Discussions 3
Sam Lazzara Record signature requirements in proposed FDA 21 CFR 820 QMS Regulation 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 9
qualprod External consultant into a QMS ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 15
S Changing PCB Assembler and impact on QMS and MDD CE Certificate EU Medical Device Regulations 2
ChrisM Class 1 non-sterile device, need certified QMS or not? EU Medical Device Regulations 2
A CDRH Learn and DICE for Building a QMS 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 6
A QMS inside a Non medical device firm ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
S HELP in setting-up QMS Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 4
S How long the QMS must be maintained after device EOL? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
K Processes interaction of QMS Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 4
P Can I exempt products/services from my AS9100 QMS? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 5

Similar threads

Top Bottom