Quality Manager and Production Manager Advice

Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Hybrid

Starting to get Involved
#12
Sorry for bumping an old thread. Can someone tell me if this is the same thing as the quality manager asking production manager if a part should be passed or not? (Simply because the production manager has been working at the plant for longer)
 

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
#13
Sorry for bumping an old thread. Can someone tell me if this is the same thing as the quality manager asking production manager if a part should be passed or not? (Simply because the production manager has been working at the plant for longer)
No.

The product or service designer (aka the customer) specifies the acceptance criteria and both types of manager should be competent enough to apply those criteria with little difference (given a capable measurement system).

BUT some of us see a conflict of interest between the people responsible for production and quality.

The rest of us would rather remove from the system (which includes culture) any reason for production to claim credit for making nonconforming items or delivering nonconforming services.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#15
Can someone tell me if this is the same thing as the quality manager asking production manager if a part should be passed or not?
Seriously, like it wouldn't matter if an item was upside down, inside out, completely backwards, black instead of white or 12mm instead of 12cm? Simply, a very obvious non-conforming piece.

Now here's the real deal, in the real world that I experience on a continual basis....Small business where people wear multiple hats and can't afford luxuries like a Quality Manager and totally different Production Manager or anything else, the owner might be those as well as the cook & chief bottle washer. It's real and those type organizations are out there, holding valid certificates and I personally visit multiple like companies every year and as Sydney said "there is only a "conflict of interest" if the organization's ethos and culture is flawed." , and I've yet to experience that in the 20 years I've been doing this (large or small organization), I just haven't seen it and being an old criminal investigator specifically trained in fraud I'd notice.

Now if you've seen or experienced it the question that comes up is "What are your ethics and values?"
 

Zero_yield

No cost too great...for Quality
#16
Sorry for bumping an old thread. Can someone tell me if this is the same thing as the quality manager asking production manager if a part should be passed or not? (Simply because the production manager has been working at the plant for longer)
I'll phrase it this way: All Quality personnel should consult with SMEs when making assessments of product quality and disposition. Open communication and alignment between Quality and Manufacturing is a good thing.

However (agreeing with Jim's answer here), assessments should always lead back to a documented requirement somewhere. I would be suspicious of a Quality Manager who always just kowtowed to the Manufacturing Manager's whim.

Experience can play a big role, though. Being able to say "Oh, yeah, we had this issue before, maybe five years ago. There was a technical document that explained everything," can turn a huge investigation into a simple query to hunt down that technical document.
 

Mike S.

Happy to be Alive
Trusted Information Resource
#17
Now here's the real deal, in the real world that I experience on a continual basis....Small business where people wear multiple hats and can't afford luxuries like a Quality Manager and totally different Production Manager or anything else, the owner might be those as well as the cook & chief bottle washer. It's real and those type organizations are out there, holding valid certificates and I personally visit multiple like companies every year and as Sydney said "there is only a "conflict of interest" if the organization's ethos and culture is flawed." , and I've yet to experience that in the 20 years I've been doing this (large or small organization), I just haven't seen it and being an old criminal investigator specifically trained in fraud I'd notice.

Now if you've seen or experienced it the question that comes up is "What are your ethics and values?"
My mind is boggled. Maybe I misunderstood? Are you saying in 20 years of auditing you haven't see a company, large or small, where the culture was flawed and nonconforming product was shipped, or someone attempted to ship it, or cover it up once it was shipped and later found to be nonconforming?

Sadly, I've seen it at least once in the majority of companies I have worked for and a few of their suppliers.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
#19
Fraudulent or purposeful misconduct?.........Not yet anyway
Maybe you could elaborate how a CB auditor would be able to determine that a shipment of nonconforming product was done willfully and deliberately. In my experience, unless a moronic individual confesses to the deed, a management system auditor would not have the time, resources, expertise and latitude to perform such type of investigation. Much more important and totally neglected by the CB community is the expected follow up to be done onto a certified QMS IF & WHEN they are caught in major ethical breaches.

Auditors and CB's further investigating certified QMS' with ethical breaches?

Another ethical breach for an ISO 9001 certified company?
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#20
In my experience, unless a moronic individual confesses to the deed, a management system auditor would not have the time, resources, expertise and latitude to perform such type of investigation.
You're coming back on a post because I agreed with you?

Like I said, I've never experienced it. Your guess is as good as mine and yep, be pretty dumb for someone to admit it in the 1st place.

I can say that back when I was doing aircraft maintenance the only way some bolts and a couple other parts got passed on to us had to be less than ethical. But that was also 35+ years ago.
 
Last edited:
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
M Production duties vs. Final Acceptance Testing - New Quality Manager needs HELP!!! Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 36
C Should a Quality Manager know daily production numbers? Career and Occupation Discussions 15
A Troublesome Production Manager is not interested in Quality Career and Occupation Discussions 24
P Part 21G - Liabilities of a Quality Manager Form 4 Post Holder EASA and JAA Aviation Standards and Requirements 1
ScottK Opening for Manager, Supplier Quality Engineering on my team- Orangeburg, NY - On-site Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 0
R Authorities of Quality Manager IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
A How would a candidate for Quality Systems Manager role answer questions in a med device manufacturing org ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 11
V Quality Manager Reporting US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 0
M Quality Manager - Aerospace/Defense Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 1
O What skills are most important for a new Quality Manager Career and Occupation Discussions 28
F Need Quality Manager advice. Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6
C Quality Manager as part of Management - 13485 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 9
B Quality Manager Retiring IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
S Quality manager considering data science Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 19
C Quality Manager vs Warranty (service) Manager - Authorities & Responsibilities Customer Complaints 2
F Position of Quality Manager - Can the organization's Quality Lead be shown as Quality Manager of the lab as well? ISO 17025 related Discussions 5
T New role Quality Manager IATF 16949, new company, advise how to get started IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
CCaantley Stepping Down from my quality manager position soon After Work and Weekend Discussion Topics 18
A ISO 9001 Help - New Quality Manager - Upper Management Support Issues ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 23
Kronos147 Quality Manager's Role in AS9100 Rev. D AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 9
S Corporate Quality Manager keeping me out of the Management Review Meeting Management Review Meetings and related Processes 28
I Auto Industry Resume Template for a Quality Manager Career and Occupation Discussions 2
F Quality Manager - Conflict of interests in organisational structure AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
C Quality Assurance Manager ? Next Steps? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 10
S Quality Assurance Manager involvement in Management Review AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 11
L What are some SOPs that a Quality Manager should have? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 6
P Leadership Standards - New job as Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 9
K New Quality Manager Role Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 13
A Shall I apply for this job position (Quality Manager)? Career and Occupation Discussions 5
J Lead Auditor and Quality Manager - Conflict of Interest? Career and Occupation Discussions 4
M Can a Quality Manager be a Lead ISO 9001 Auditor? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 37
L Quality Manager wants Internal Auditor to softgrade the findings - What shall I do? Internal Auditing 23
R Root Cause Analysis of Audit Findings - New Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 20
J Quality Manager's role in Customer and Supplier Complaints Customer Complaints 10
Y New Quality Manager looking for Tips and Quality Methodologies Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 8
K What would you do in the first 90 days of a new job as the Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 33
1 Quality VP/Manager left - Educating his replacement Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 9
F What Training should a Quality Manager have? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 32
L Product Manager vs. Quality Manager: Who is right? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 14
D Designing a Training Course called "Role of the Laboratory Quality Manager" Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 13
J Is this practice common? 1 Quality Manager covering QA, QC, QE, SQE IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 20
M What qualifications should a Quality Assurance Manager have? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 3
G Definition Quality Manager - What is the definition of a Quality Manager? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 16
R Quality Manager Reporting to Director of Manufacturing - Conflict of Interest? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 24
R Distinction between Management Representative vs. Quality Manager Responsibilities IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
B Quality Manager Weekly Report Template Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 7
L How to improve Product Quality - New Job as Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 3
C New Quality Manager - Establishing Teams in different Business Units Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 4
P Does the Quality Manager have to be a Senior Manager? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 13
R Quality Manager Training Methods - Learning and Implementing ISO 9001 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 26

Similar threads

Top Bottom