Quality Objectives - Is this an audit nonconformity?

[Danyboy32]

ISO 9001:2015 6.2.1.d) reads:"...quality objectives shall be relevant to conformity of products and to enhancement of customer satisfaction...".

Since only one of the objectives mentioned is quality related, would this constitute an NC in the context of ISO 9001:2015 based on 6.2.1.d) ?

 

[John Broomfield]

The system objectives:

1. Improving sales requires customer focus and customer loyalty (both are quality).
2. The quality of company profits for shareholders as customers. Delivered by eliminating causes of waste including the costs of poor quality.
3. See item 2 for reducing energy consumption but this is really an environmental objective.
4. Delivering employees a quality safe work environment (but this is really a safety objective).
5. Reduce product rework to 0.2% of total production (also see item 2.).

In these I see at least two quality objectives. Not a nonconformity.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

1. Improving sales requires customer focus and customer loyalty (both are quality).

I have no interest in rehashing 13 years of debate in this thread, but to imply that improving sales is a quality objective, without knowing how this objective will be attained is unwise. Any organization can improve sales by price reduction, misleading advertisement, outright lies to existing and potential customers, lowering standards, etc....All of that would have long term consequences in customer loyalty. As I've mentioned already, focus on sales improvement can actually result in customer dissatisfaction so, anyone trying to delve into the quality objectives should dig deeper than the surface, in order to make an educated assessment.

 

[John Broomfield]

All quality management systems I have been involved with have included controls over the marketing and sales processes to only make promises the organization can fulfill.

I will admit, however, that many so called ISO systems do not include the marketing and selling processes. I have no idea how these systems are certified as conforming to ISO 9001.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

I will admit, however, that many so called ISO systems do not include SNIP selling processes.

That's an explosive allegation. Have you ever approached an Accreditation Body, such as, UKAS, about that? Any CB which agrees to certify a QMS without delving into the organization's selling process is a fraud.

 

[John Broomfield]

No, unfortunately not. They were not my clients or suppliers but the employers, suppliers or clients of fellow members of the ASQ and IQA who used to argue back in the 1980’s and up until the 2000’s that sales was not part of quality.

They argued that only the contract review part of sales was required.

In your post #143 you provided me with the evidence of nonconforming sales processes and doubtless you and your colleagues will have reported such nonconformities as “ misleading advertisement, outright lies to existing and potential customers, lowering standards, etc...” for corrective action?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

I don't understand the question. ISO 9001 specifies requirements for a QMS when an organization aims to enhance customer satisfaction....bla...bla...bla. If an audit trail leads to a conclusion of misleading advertisements, outright lies, etc...any auditor who knows what they are doing HAVE to report the issue. Is there any doubt?

 

[John Broomfield]

Then we are agreed that increased sales may be achieved by building customer loyalty and/or by sharing cost savings through better quality management with reduced prices.

The dubious methods you cited will have been prevented by the system or eliminated by your audits.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

The dubious methods you cited will have been prevented by the system or eliminated by your audits.

Not necessarily because:

1. Many (actually most) companies are not certified to ISO 9001
2. Some companies that are certified and still want to use the "dubious methods" find a zero-resistance path to a façade certificate, sometimes colluding with an unscrupulous "consultant"
3. Some companies might deliberately and actively HIDE the information from a competent auditor.

 

[John Broomfield]

2. Some companies that are certified and still want to use the "dubious methods" find a zero-resistance path to a façade certificate, sometimes colluding with an unscrupulous "consultant"
3. Some companies might deliberately and actively HIDE the information from a competent auditor.

Unfortunately, not a great advert for audit or for certifying any organization as a system.

Of course, here at the Cove we are in the business of developing systems that are effective.