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Quality System Process Map - Is this too detailed or not enough detail?

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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#12
Thank you all for the constructive feedback. I have made some more adjustments to my Process Map. Do you think its conforming now to the ISO requirements?
I appreciate all your opinions.

I would have difficulty accepting this if I were auditing you. Only the bottom (Cl 7) seems to actually mention the "processes you folks do. The rest of the verbiage appears to be reciting the clause numbers.

You need to make a list of the primary, core, processes that describe what you actually do for your customers.

Also, list the supporting or administrative processes you do to support those core processes (training, auditing, corrective action, etc.).

These two lists then have to be developed as discussed in clause 4.1.

My problem is not with your diagram, I have a problem with the fact it does not address your processes.
 
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josecortez

#13
I would have difficulty accepting this if I were auditing you. Only the bottom (Cl 7) seems to actually mention the "processes you folks do. The rest of the verbiage appears to be reciting the clause numbers.

You need to make a list of the primary, core, processes that describe what you actually do for your customers.

Also, list the supporting or administrative processes you do to support those core processes (training, auditing, corrective action, etc.).

These two lists then have to be developed as discussed in clause 4.1.

My problem is not with your diagram, I have a problem with the fact it does not address your processes.

Thanks alot for your professional input. I took it to heart and made some changes. What is your opinion now?
 

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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#14
Thanks alot for your professional input. I took it to heart and made some changes. What is your opinion now?

I think it is clearly better. It might work for one of my audits, though I would need to review it more. But, definitely better. I personally, prefer a simpler approach. I have seen a straight line of core processes, going from Sales through Engineering, Purchasing, Scheduling, Manufacturing to Shipping. These are the "core" Customer Oriented Processes. Then, put an oval around it. All the support processes would be on this oval. (Sorry, I don't have a diagram to post). The inputs and outputs can be described on a matrix or some turtle diagrams.

The benefit of this approach is it is very simple and easy for everyone to understand. If they understand it easier, then it would be more likely to actually be used.

Just my personal approach.:2cents:
 
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JaneB

#16
I'm with hjilling, I prefer a simpler approach.

Look, taking a purely design & usability focus, my first reaction when I opened your map was that I literally didn't know where to look. It appeared rather cluttered & very busy.

I found it odd to have such a heavy amount of 'action' on the right hand side of the map and such a big empty space on the top left. Western readers generally start at the left side of a page and read across - but you've got a blank there. And an extremely large yellow rectangle on the right, which is very dominant.

I don't doubt you've got a lot of info on the page - but do you really need it all? I'd be inclined to put it in front of some people and ask them: what's your first impression (ie, can they understand it fairly easily or not?). My guess is not. And (unless it's not a good idea) try some people at work - if they can't follow it, then you've got a problem, & I'm guessing they probably can't. I'd like to see you end up with something that's kind of quickly 'obvious' & clear.

I'd be much more inclined to start with the beginning (eg, requests for quotes, etc) & put that at the left side (assuming your flow is left to right), then move through the main activities actually associated with core business - ie, getting & selling stuff & ending with delivery to customer at right. Keep them similar sizes and evenly distributed.

Then make the rest of the processes subordinate, which they are. Sorry to be so critical - but as is, it's not really easy to read.
 
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Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#18
Does anyboday else have any feedback regarding my Process map?
If you've read my previous posts on this subject, you'll know that I'm a bit of a maverick when it comes to the System Process Map. I don't agree with most of what I've seen posted.

The standard says:

The organization shall:​

a) identify the processes needed for the quality management system and their application throughout the organization (see 1.2)
b) determine the sequence and interaction of these processes;​

I believe that you have combined and confused "Key" processes with "Secondary" processes. I don't believe that you have to include the secondary processes of Product Realization - it's far too complex, and it's captured in your "Product Realization" flow chart, you don't have to duplicate it here. That's not what the standard is requesting. It's asking for the processes which define your Management System, not Product Realization.

What you have to do is:
1) Define your KEY PROCESSES (most organizations don't have more than 12 or 15). For the purposes of the "Map" it helps to group them together into System-, Management-, Support-, or Customer-oriented classifications.
2) Demonstrate their "Sequence" and "Interaction".​


If it's done properly, it will demonstrate how Senior Management steer the organization toward its goals and objectives, for all processes: customer-, support, management-, and system-oriented.

In the attached "corner" of a "System Process Model", you see, I've grouped together 4 "support-oriented" processes (SOP-0006,7,8, & 9). These processes interface and provide input to the "Business Planning & Management Review" process (per SOP-0003). How?...these support processes produce output which are monitored, measured & analysed (per SOP-0005) and reported to Management. Management reviews the results (per SOP-0003), and feeds back Corrective or Preventive Action or Continual Improvement (per SOP-0005) into the respective process.

The same dynamics happen for the customer-oriented processes. You plan, implement, monitor, measure, analyse, review, correct/prevent improve...etc.

I believe they're asking for how the system works...not how Product Realization happens.

Also, I can't remember all the details in your map, but I don't recall seeing the "Control of Monitoring & Measuring Devices", or "Control of Documents and Records", or "Change Control"...

I hope this is helpful, and not confusing...I know it's a bit of a deviation from the popular approach.

Patricia Ravanello

P.S. Putting arrows between processes to connect them, does not explain the interaction. I think this Map needs to communicate to employees what the dynamics are between the processes. Example: Your Infrastructure link to Management doesn't explain the dynamics. It is not accurate and doesn't explain how the Management Review process impacts on the performance of Infrastructure processes.
 

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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#19
Could I get some professional opinions on my Process map draft? Is this too detailed? or not enough detail?
Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Jose
Hello Jose,

Allow me to come back to your original post. By now you have seen many examples of process maps. Good intentions and great suggestions from all Covers. But......in the end, you must do what makes most sense to your company and its employees. If your process map works for you and it meets the intent of the Standard...go at it! If you decide to incorporate all suggestions, you may end up with something you may not like at all. Remember that a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

Good Luck Jose!

Stijloor.
 
D

DsqrdDGD909

#20
It looks to be thorough, but it is too busy in my opinion. Better use of fonts (larger, cleaner - I prefer arial and Tahoma), colors and layout would help. I would use more decision points as opposed to just arrows.

But the bigger question is "Does it work for you?" and secondarily "Does it work for your auditors, suppliers and customers?
 
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