Question for Auditors on 7.1.4 in the ISO9001:2015 revision

[ScottK]

So 7.1.4 specifically calls out psychological environment...

Are you actually monitoring that? And how, without education in social work or psychology?

What would you do if you were auditing a company and you observed things like:
- So-and-so manager quit because the stress was too much (and you learn that he was the third in 4 years in that position)
- The QA management leaves and has to be replaced about every 18-24 months
- yelling fights clearly audible through office doors
- "HR is useless in advocating for stress reduction"

 

[AndyN]

So 7.1.4 specifically calls out psychological environment...

Are you actually monitoring that? And how, without education in social work or psychology?

What would you do if you were auditing a company and you observed things like:
- So-and-so manager quit because the stress was too much (and you learn that he was the third in 4 years in that position)
- The QA management leaves and has to be replaced about every 18-24 months
- yelling fights clearly audible through office doors
- "HR is useless in advocating for stress reduction"

It's just a note... Not a requirement.

 

[ScottK]

It's jut a note... Not a requirement.

the note gives things to consider when reviewing this requirement, right?
Why make it a note if it's to be ignored?

Would any auditor say anything if something like this came up in an audit?
If turnover is particularly high doesn't this indicate a problem with the environment of other sources complain of a stressful workplace?

 

[AndyN]

the note gives things to consider when reviewing this requirement, right?
Why make it a note if it's to be ignored?

Would any auditor say anything if something like this came up in an audit?
If turnover is particularly high doesn't this indicate a problem with the environment of other sources complain of a stressful workplace?

Nope. I worked at a place which had a 80% turnover in the first 30 days of hiring. Nothing to do with stress... By the time we got done with implementing a QMS, it went to 80 retention.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

What would you do if you were auditing a company and you observed things like:
- So-and-so manager quit because the stress was too much (and you learn that he was the third in 4 years in that position)
- The QA management leaves and has to be replaced about every 18-24 months
- yelling fights clearly audible through office doors
- "HR is useless in advocating for stress reduction"

From an employee/associate mental health well being this is something that clearly falls in the scope of ISO 45001, not 9001.

As a QMS auditor, if I follow an investigation trail that shows quality problems/customer dissatisfaction issues that are a (direct) result of extreme turnover, I would ask questions. But remember, auditors are not supposed to delve into the root cause analysis of the problem. Even if the organization's root cause investigation leads to a consensus that high turnover is due to unbearable mental stress in the workplace, company might decide that the solution is to hire people who are less "touchy-feely" and more tough skinned...

As an auditor, I may connect the dots because it is extremely unlikely that an organization that subjects it's workforce to this type of environment would really be concerned with customer satisfaction, but I have to stick to evidence at hand and the proper auditing protocols.

 

[ScottK]

Nope. I worked at a place which had a 80% turnover in the first 30 days of hiring. Nothing to do with stress... By the time we got done with implementing a QMS, it went to 80 retention.

I'm suggesting that stress as a reason for turnover has already been indicated by auditees in the course of the audit...

 

[AndyN]

I'm suggesting that stress as a reason for turnover has already been indicated by auditees in the course of the audit...

The problem with people is we all have different perceptions of what stress is. In the auto industry, being in a staff function means you work 50 hour weeks. They say you never leave a bad job, you leave a bad boss - I can vouch for that - but the stress level of the job wasn't different with different bosses.