Question in auditing regarding CAR (Corrective Action) Logs

P

puck1263

#1
We had a 3rd party audit for ISO 9001 last year. During the audit, the auditor asked us about our CAR process. We answered by tracking CARS in a Log and bragged about all the details and control. The auditor asked to see the log. She then scrolled down the log and picked CAR examples she wanted to see.
I didn't see a problem with this, but it led to a big deal about how that can't be done in an audit.
Where is this rule?
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
Re: question in auditing regarding logs

We had a 3rd party audit for ISO 9001 last year. During the audit, the auditor asked us about our CAR process. We answered by tracking CARS in a Log and bragged about all the details and control. The auditor asked to see the log. She then scrolled down the log and picked CAR examples she wanted to see.
I didn't see a problem with this, but it led to a big deal about how that can't be done in an audit.
Where is this rule?
Here is the "rule." The purpose of the audit is to assess the effectiveness of processes within your quality management system.

How it can't be done????? It can be done and the auditor should. She is simply verifying the CAR process; the log, CAR's, the whole nine yards.... Kudos to your auditor! :applause:

Stijloor.
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: question in auditing regarding logs

We had a 3rd party audit for ISO 9001 last year. During the audit, the auditor asked us about our CAR process. We answered by tracking CARS in a Log and bragged about all the details and control. The auditor asked to see the log. She then scrolled down the log and picked CAR examples she wanted to see.
I didn't see a problem with this, but it led to a big deal about how that can't be done in an audit.
Where is this rule?
Whoever made a big deal out of this is deeply mistaken. Every single audit I have been through has included a pointed examination of my CAR logs, and followed a sample of the CAs from start to finish based on what the logs listed. The logs might only list the CARs, while the records of what goes on lies elsewhere. Whatever the case, the auditor can, and definitely should, examine these records to verify problems are being identified and getting resolved.
 
P

puck1263

#4
Re: question in auditing regarding logs

It wasn't the record examination that was scrutinized, but the method used to select them....my boss likened it to rifling through a file cabinet.....

Some auditors ask you to provide examples...some ask to see specific examples (one from last month, last one closed, one from a particular customer). Some want to see the log and pick one. To me, its all the same and I don't know where this "rule" is coming from. Just thought I'd verify with you guys.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
Re: question in auditing regarding logs

It wasn't the record examination that was scrutinized, but the method used to select them....my boss likened it to riffling through a file cabinet.....

Some auditors ask you to provide examples...some ask to see specific examples (one from last month, last one closed, one from a particular customer). Some want to see the log and pick one. To me, its all the same and I don't know where this "rule" is coming from. Just thought I'd verify with you guys.
Your boss is mistaken. It's not "riffling", it's called "random sampling."
And that is what auditors are supposed to do...

Stijloor.
 
Last edited:

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: question in auditing regarding logs

It wasn't the record examination that was scrutinized, but the method used to select them....my boss likened it to rifling through a file cabinet.....

Some auditors ask you to provide examples...some ask to see specific examples (one from last month, last one closed, one from a particular customer). Some want to see the log and pick one. To me, its all the same and I don't know where this "rule" is coming from. Just thought I'd verify with you guys.
How many were selected for the sample?

I will generally ask to see a general percentage of records. In a process that appears problematic, 5% or less of a sample could become as much as 15% or more, to satisfy myself that I wasn't just experiencing "inspector's luck."
 

Kales Veggie

People: The Vital Few
#8
Re: question in auditing regarding logs

Your boss is mistaken. It's not "riffling", it's called "random sampling."
And that is what auditors are supposed to do...

Stijloor.
Let me add this:

A good auditor will select the sample randomly, generally at the location where records are stored and not have the auditee select his/her predetermined random sample.

I have done several supplier assessments recently where auditees were very eager to bring me their samples. I refused those samples and selected my own from the available records.
 
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