Quoted Tolerances Trumping Drawing Tolerances?

QMMike

Involved In Discussions
#1
OK... I have this question - I've seen it from a supplier standpoint sending out quotes, and I've seen it from a customer's point of view from receiving quotes...

If a supplier quotes a part and on their quote makes the declaration that "ALL PARTS ARE QUOTED BASED ON RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES".

If the quote is accepted and a PO is issued - does this statement trump the drawing and upon PPAP submittal, RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES should be used?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
B

Bogie

#2
OK... I have this question - I've seen it from a supplier standpoint sending out quotes, and I've seen it from a customer's point of view from receiving quotes...

If a supplier quotes a part and on their quote makes the declaration that "ALL PARTS ARE QUOTED BASED ON RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES".

If the quote is accepted and a PO is issued - does this statement trump the drawing and upon PPAP submittal, RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES should be used?
Sales people will always be of the opinion that a quote will trump. However, many customers' PO requirements (usually spelled out in a seperate document) will spell out that they do not recognize exceptions unless specifically accepted by a customer representative.

We finally took the guesswork out of who would win the p***ing contest (which large customers would always win anyway) and require that we get written acceptance of any exceptions before we accept the PO.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#3
OK... I have this question - I've seen it from a supplier standpoint sending out quotes, and I've seen it from a customer's point of view from receiving quotes...

If a supplier quotes a part and on their quote makes the declaration that "ALL PARTS ARE QUOTED BASED ON RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES".

If the quote is accepted and a PO is issued - does this statement trump the drawing and upon PPAP submittal, RMA PRECISION TOLERANCES should be used?
It's not the quote or the drawing, necessarily but the contract (the purchase order) that will ultimately rule in a dispute. Unless special terms in the quotation are acknowledged and included in the purchase order (or a PO amendment), the purchase order shouldn't be accepted.
 

QMMike

Involved In Discussions
#4
Would written acceptance be the approval of the PSW when in the comment section of the PSW it is stated what tolerances were used and in the layout report the quoted tolerances were used?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Would written acceptance be the approval of the PSW when in the comment section of the PSW it is stated what tolerances were used and in the layout report the quoted tolerances were used?
This sort of tacit PPAP approval is often problematic, and even if it were to be upheld it would probably apply only to the PPAP production parts. In the end, if you want to use tolerances (or anything else) other than what the contract specifies, you're going to need to change the contract. If you don't have these things explicitly ironed out before the work begins, you risk losing money and having a disgruntled customer, whether the customer is right or wrong.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
Excuse my ignorance, what is a PSW?
It stands for Part Submission Warrant, and it's an AIAG PPAP document that serves as a sort of certificate of conformance--a signed statement that indicates that all customer requirements have been met.
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#8
It stands for Part Submission Warrant, and it's an AIAG PPAP document that serves as a sort of certificate of conformance--a signed statement that indicates that all customer requirements have been met.
Unfortunately, even if a customer signs it, many third party auditors do not equate that to the customer agree to the contents. It is a sad interpretation of the warrant, in that it dilutes the value of the whole exercise as one where the customer and the supplier agree to a baseline for the product and its process.
 
T

tomvehoski

#9
I ran into this one recently. Supplier quoted industry tolerances which were not as tight as our print. They submitted PPAP saying they could not meet our print but could meet the industry tolerance they quoted. Quality (my) department rejected the PPAP for not matching print. Pi#@ing match ensued about forcing the supplier to comply :confused: or changing our print. Ended up changin our print.

It is poor design & development processes that let this stuff happen. If it was done right up front the prints would be set to match what is needed, feasible and cost effective. It should be taken care of long before PPAP.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#10
Unfortunately, even if a customer signs it, many third party auditors do not equate that to the customer agree to the contents. It is a sad interpretation of the warrant, in that it dilutes the value of the whole exercise as one where the customer and the supplier agree to a baseline for the product and its process.
Although I don't remember the particulars, I had a situation with an auditor during a QS9000 surveillance audit where some particular of the PPAP requirements hadn't been met (as opposed to part requirements), but there were several approved PPAPs on file from the same customer with the same omission. I think it had something to do with material test reports, which almost never meet all of the PPAP requirements. The argument was that because it was evidentially OK with the customer, the PPAP requirement was superseded. The auditor replied that exceptions should be explicitly documented, but in the end let it go without further ado.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
Z Is PPAP Re-qualification needed in case of not quoted dimension change? APQP and PPAP 4
E Is there a need to pay for the symbol quoted in ISO 3826-2:2008? Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 1
J0anne Link to find 502 (f)(1) which is quoted several times in 21 CFR 820 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 8
R Tolerances for Analytical Balances General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
Skooma Deburring and Tolerances - Is there a Standard for deburring or removing material? Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
B FAI and ANSI Y14.5 Trailing Zeros and Print Tolerances Manufacturing and Related Processes 3
H Thread Plug Gauge Tolerances General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
W Key functional characteristic definition - Tolerances and Deviations Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 0
M Best Practice for setting tolerances on a Drawing Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 8
DietCokeofEvil What is the general consensus on Caliper tolerances? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 1
Q M-282 - Engineering Standard for Tolerances - Is it ASTM, DIN? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
S MSA (Measurement System Analysis) - Process Tolerances Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
J Tighter Tolerances than Control Plan FMEA and Control Plans 1
P Applying Combined Tolerances of Two Scales - Balance Tolerance Question General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 9
G MSA (Measurement System Analysis) and Dimensional Tolerances Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
B Changing dimensional tolerances to approve rejected product ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
K Tolerances on Drawing Title Block Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 3
V GD&T Interpreting Datums in Two Single Segmented Position Tolerances Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
C ZZ Pin Gage Tolerances and Calibration General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 2
W Thread Micrometer Standard Tolerances General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
D ISO 8062-3 Angle Tolerances - The drawing states ISO 8062-3 DCTG 11 Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 1
M Thread Gage Tolerances ?Who?s The Authority?? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 9
N Injection Molded Nylon Part Tolerances Manufacturing and Related Processes 6
A Ppk Issue - Some Products have Unilateral Tolerances Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 24
H GD&T - How to measure these Positional Tolerances on a CMM Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 10
S Improper Use of Tolerances & SPC Practices, or not? Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 5
M Vinyl and Cloth Cut Parts Tolerances? (Car Seats) Manufacturing and Related Processes 8
G Geometric Tolerance - Swedish Drawing which states that all tolerances are to NS 1430 Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
optomist1 ASME GD&T Certification Test - Converting Coordinate Tolerances to Profile Tolerances Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 8
S S-Type Tolerances: How to calculate Cs? Control Limit(s)? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 8
S Typical Tools for Particular Tolerances Table? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 15
M Recording True Positioning (Geometric Tolerances) on an FAI Report Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 15
D Statistical Tolerances in GD&T (Geometric Dimensioning & Tolerancing)? Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 31
D DIN 1683 Casting Tolerances - What does "GTB" mean? Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 7
P Gauge Design Tolerances - How to decide tolerances for gauge design? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
smryan Can Cpk be calculated without tolerances or limits? Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 11
D Metric Print from Italy - Tolerances - 38.8mm -0.015/-0.045 Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 5
O Sum of Cpk - Updating Product Tolerances Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 6
K Basis for Establishing Gage Tolerancing - "Gage Maker's Tolerances" General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 4
E How to Determine Tolerances for Equipment Verification General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 18
F Capability Calculation on 1 Population Multiple Tolerances Capability, Accuracy and Stability - Processes, Machines, etc. 5
L UN Class 5 Tolerances - Thread Setting Plug Gage 7/8-9 UNC 5 General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 23
M No Tolerances given by Customer - Shirring (sewing operation) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
M DIN6930 What table to use - Tolerances of straight line and radii measurements Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 4
D Adjusting Tolerances because of available tooling? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 9
U Calculating Pp for Unilateral Tolerances Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 17
S Opening Up Tolerances - We have over 6000 live drawings - help please Design and Development of Products and Processes 6
T How to Calculate Process Capability for Unilateral Tolerances? Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 21
R Definition Basic Dimensions - What are basic dimensions? Why don't they have tolerances? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 14
M Strict Tolerances RR/TV or RR/Tol - Automotive Requirements Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 6

Similar threads

Top Bottom