Search the Elsmar Cove!
**Search ALL of Elsmar.com** with DuckDuckGo including content not in the forum - Search results with No ads.

Informational Re-engineering of the IAF Accreditation and the Management System Certification Processes

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#21
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

The presentations delivered during the 3rd IAF Industry Day are available below. I find specially interesting paper number 3 which indicates that Accreditation might become a regulated activity in Europe, in the near future.

IAF-TGA INDUSTRY DAY PRESENTATIONS - 5 MARCH 2008, BONN, GERMANY
1. Speakers Biographical Summaries
2. Intention of the IAF Industry Day & IAF Strategic Goals - Dr. Thomas Facklam, IAF Chair
3. Regulator's view - Jacques McMillan, European Commission
4. EA's approach to accreditation and accredited certification - Dr Lorenzo Thione, EA Chair
5. Lawyer's view: Legal impact of accredited certification - Jean-Luc Laffineur, Laffineur Law Firm
6. Small & Medium Enterprises - Loucas Gourtsoyannis, NORMAPME
7. Multi-national producer of heavy machinery - Robert W. Noth, Deere & Company
8. Multi sector industry: Semiconductors - Leo Stühler, Infineon
9. Highly regulated industry: Medical devices - Dr. Gerd Schmidt (Carlos Arglebe), Siemens Healthcare

10. A new certification approach in the Oil industry - Dr. John Symonds, Exxon​
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

The presentations delivered during the 3rd IAF Industry Day are available below. I find specially interesting paper number 3 which indicates that Accreditation might become a regulated activity in Europe, in the near future.
We need this here. Time to get confidence back in the accreditation process.

Stijloor.
 
J

jmilhome - 2010

#23
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

Mr. Nigel Croft delivered this presentation[/URL] almost 3 years ago on the future of certification. It talks about the stratification of organizations, AB's, CB's, consultants and auditors along the lines of adding value. Makes for interesting reading IMO.

Mr. Croft is unrelentless in his drive to bring credibility back to the accredited certification process.
Dear Sydney
Any chance you still have that presentation on the Future of Certification by Nigel Croft?
That link doesn't seem to be working any more.
Thanks
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#24
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

No, I don't have a copy of that specific presentation any longer. However, collectively, the presentations available from the IAF Industry Days give us a glimpse of the future of the certification sector. That is, if you read in between the lines....;)
 
Last edited:
#25
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

No, I don't have a copy of that specific presentation any longer. However, collectively, the presentations available from the IAF Industry Days give us a glimpse of the future of the certification sector. That is, if you read in between the lines....;)
A "corral the wagons" view but a view nonetheless.

How did I miss this first time around? :confused: Having met some of the great and the good of the certification and accreditation world over the last week I get the specific impression that the accreditation industry believes that added bureaucracy and standards are the answer to improving accredited certification. My idea (which I'm sure fell on stony ground) was that credible cerification requires credible accreditation and you won't get that until you get competent accreditation assessors working diligently in and among the certification bodies to make them weed out the auditors and CBs that let the whole process down.

.... and yes I have told "our" accreditation body that there are real opportunities to do that.

IMHO they don't have the people - or the will to bring them in.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#26
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

My idea (which I'm sure fell on stony ground) was that credible cerification requires credible accreditation and you won't get that until you get competent accreditation assessors working diligently in and among the certification bodies to make them weed out the auditors and CBs that let the whole process down.
And that is why I say (and have been saying for almost a decade), the users of the accredited certification sector are the only ones that can demand sustainable change. The people who created the accredited certification box we currently inhabit have shown over and over again they can not take us out of the present paradigm. As covered in this thread and elsewhere in this Forum, the Automotive Industry, tried an augmented accreditation process for the automotive QMS certification (QS-9000, TE supplement) and decided not pursue that route any longer. People should ask themselves why is that. Why TS-16949 certificates do not carry an accreditation mark....
IMHO they don't have the people - or the will to bring them in.
People used to think that the higher you are in this chain, the better caliber of professionals you would find.
 
#28
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

And that is why I say (and have been saying for almost a decade), the users of the accredited certification sector are the only ones that can demand sustainable change.
It comes down to who you believe the users of certification are:
  • Certified companies
  • Their customers - the purchasers of products and services
Each of these groups has a different agenda. The customers may want certification to give them conforming product or services at lower cost. Playing devil's advocate - the certified companies may believe they can "do" quality on their own and want their certification at lowest cost / least hassle.
The people who created the accredited certification box we currently inhabit have shown over and over again they can not take us out of the present paradigm.
As someone who was around when the first accreditation body evolved out of BSI the aim then (as now) was to keep the "cowboys" out. You have to judge if it has been successful. :notme:

So what do we do? All my ideas are documented here somewhere .... please feel free to search. Or I may summarize again!

As covered in this thread and elsewhere in this Forum, the Automotive Industry, tried an augmented accreditation process for the automotive QMS certification (QS-9000, TE supplement) and decided not pursue that route any longer.
Again the rigour of the approval process for CBs and auditors wasn't good enough. I know of "approved" CBs and auditors I wouldn't give house room to.

Unfortunately I can also say the same for TS CBs / auditors. :mg:
People should ask themselves why is that. Why TS-16949 certificates do not carry an accreditation mark....
It is because the auto industry has chosen to take their supplier approval process out of the "standard" process - unfortunately - like many sector schemes - the evidence is it doesn't make it better or worse - just different!
People used to think that the higher you are in this chain, the better caliber of professionals you would find.
If you follow that logic the president or prime minister of your country would be the most capable as well! :lmao:

IMHO the people at the "coal face" are the ones who deserve most respect - they are the ones making the difference for quality (or environment, health & safety etc., etc.).

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a certification manager not too long ago. He "fancied" joining an accreditation body so he could "tell" CBs what to do. :mg:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#29
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

Guys, I think your comments and debate back and forth may apply to some of the ISO 9001 auditors. Some of the ISO guys I meet are somewhat limited in broad experience.

However, most of the TS guys i meet have a pretty good bit of depth and experience. Some registrars are better than others, and there are some weak folks out there, but many/most I meet provide good product. Better than the average ISO guys, on the whole.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#30
Re: Re-engineering of the Accreditation and Certification processes

It is because the auto industry has chosen to take their supplier approval process out of the "standard" process - unfortunately - like many sector schemes - the evidence is it doesn't make it better or worse - just different!
If you pay attention to the presentations provided via the IATF on this subject, they are very happy with the TS 16949 certification process, vis a vis the significant quality improvement of the automotive supply chain. Their assessment, not mine. They seem to be happy with how the process is working in their sector.
 
Top Bottom