Reasons for early termination of an audit?

#11
CINDY said:
During our last TS - 16949 Pre-Audit the Auditor stopped the audit because we did not have the process maps the way his company wanted them. And, again I have talked to the auditor and they have changed their acceptable requirements and they have a list of acceptable procedures. From an auditee standpoint; how can an auditor dictate what your procedures should be provided you meet the requirement?

Cindy
Process maps - TS2 does not require process maps. Most CB's have a specific format in which they want processes listed,i.e., master list. This should be known and approved up front during the off-site review.
The CB and/or auditor cannot dictate the type or content of your procrdures.
There are only 7 procedures required by TS2; it's up to you what documents you provide for meeting the requirements for everything else.

I would have a discussion with the CB. If that doesn't work, contact the IATF for guidance.
 
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C

CINDY

#12
Wes and Sam,

We have decided to shop around, we just have not done it yet. Since our system addresses 3 standards it was difficult. But it works for us. We have a total of 24 "standard specific" procedures and one manual. We also have supporting flowcharts, work instructions, additional manuals, forms, etc.

I have enjoyed having the same Auditor for the past 4 years. The more he learned our system the harder he looked. I have always been proud of our system and looked forward to our Surveillance audits. But that was QS....

Our 17025 Auditor likes the old method of procedures, our TS and EMS Auditors like the maps. I maintain all of it. It is much easier to have one system that the whole company can apply and seporate the technical specific requirements for the lab.

We know it is not a matter of just adding titles. The Auditor already informed me of that. Our Auditor informed us that TS does require process maps and that is what is required.

Any suggestions for Registrars?

Cindy
 
#13
I have terminated an internal audit prematurely just once...

The reason was that we having met with roughly half the people we were sceduled to interview were quite unable to get hold of the rest.

They:

  • had forgotten about it
  • did not have the time
  • could not be bothered
  • and so on... You have all heard the excuses...

Anyway, I decided to put my foot down, firmly... One reason was that I had a rookie on his first audit with me. Another was that the people using the most feeble excuses were the managers involved. We bailed out and reported this to the MR. We got a lot more attention the next time around. :rolleyes:

I have also agreed to rescedule an audit on very short notice on several occasions. One have to accept that sometimes... like when a production line you're about too visit has just broken down....

/Claes
 
C

CINDY

#14
Claes,

How could they be too busy, forgot about it, or what ever? I would have done the same thing you did.

Cindy
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#15
Bottom line....in reality during registration audits something like this will be stipulated in the contract agreement betwen the registrar and the organization. Is it a steadfast, unbreakable rule to stop an audit? Nope....
 
S

SteelWoman

#16
Side note, though I've never stopped an audit I once had someone stop the audit FOR ME - refuse to be audited because in about 10 seconds it became very obvious he had not done ANYTHING he was required to do by his procedures and it was going to be a major. So he said, "Audit's over - bye!"

Needless to say that particular individual doesn't work here anymore! :ko:
 
#17
I had a client recently that used a single map for their processes. Their registrar (TS) commented that their system was one of the best he'd seen. I am enclosing a copy of the map we used as a base. I have posted it before.
 

Attachments

S

SSwanson

#18
I've terminated an audit a couple times... but usually with the consent of the customer. In these cases, I found that there is a complete misunderstanding during the initial audit, or the system had completely gone in the dumpster since the last audit. I normally write one NCR stating that the system has not been maintained as required, and that in consultation with the customer, a re-assessment audit is plan within the next 90 days. I suppose the auditor is not supposed to, but I will take the time left in the audit and detail all the corrections, and how to correct them, with the customer. This is not considered consulting, which would be a no-no for an assessor. The customers appreciate the fact that you are honest. The company saves some face if you offer to write one NCR that the system is not implemented per paragraph 4.1, rather than writing 15 - 20 NCRs. I once had 35 NCRs in three hours... for a transportation company. In that case it was a pre-assessment and their consultant was not present. I never went back to the company to see if the consultant was still alive.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#19
SSwanson said:
...I will take the time left in the audit and detail all the corrections, and how to correct them, with the customer. This is not considered consulting, which would be a no-no for an assessor.
I agree that it's a good idea to point out where the problems are, but I disagree with telling them how to correct them. This is consulting. Giving examples of things you've seen that met the requirements is not consulting though...
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#20
Originally Posted by CINDY
During our last TS - 16949 Pre-Audit the Auditor stopped the audit because we did not have the process maps the way his company wanted them. And, again I have talked to the auditor and they have changed their acceptable requirements and they have a list of acceptable procedures. From an auditee standpoint; how can an auditor dictate what your procedures should be provided you meet the requirement?

Cindy
Sam said:
Process maps - TS2 does not require process maps. Most CB's have a specific format in which they want processes listed,i.e., master list. This should be known and approved up front during the off-site review.
The CB and/or auditor cannot dictate the type or content of your procrdures.
There are only 7 procedures required by TS2; it's up to you what documents you provide for meeting the requirements for everything else.

I would have a discussion with the CB. If that doesn't work, contact the IATF for guidance.
From AIAG implementation guide, which is not a definitive reference but...
Page 171
Objective:
The objective of this section is to provide organizations with some examples of how process mapping can be used to help organizations understand their quality management system and their processes in order to meet the requirements of ISO/TS 16949:2002.
and
Key Considerations:
There are many different ways to do process mapping and it is up to each organization to determine the appropriate method for their organization and QMS. If graphical flowcharts are used, it is recommended that a standard symbolism be used. It is recommended that organizations define a standard set of symbols to be used by the organization in all process maps. This will ensure that everyone can understand the process maps created throughout the organization. The nature of the process itself may help determine which process mapping methodology is best. Processes can be defined by a series of procedures, which together meet all the requirements of having all attributes of a process.
"my emphasis"

I have not had an audit stopped but have had demands that the checklist of IATF be completed with a reference for a controlled document for every question.

as they say caveat emptor - buyer beware, ask the questions before you are stuck.
 
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