Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America (circa 2010)

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

And why is that?

Stijloor.

If you are asking why the ABs are not doing their part, that is a great question! I know they spend countless hours focusing on minutae in many of their witness audits (...not sour grapes, I do pretty well in my witness audits). All the while, a few CBs commit major violations. It's liek a cop writing a parking ticket while there is a mugging going on acorss the street. To their credit, some of the auditors have gotten better, but by and large, they still focus on the minor things.

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Thanks to Sidney for the links to the other threads and I agree. There is a general point though that, assuming the CB is not providing my customer with any value (which he is not) then the least he could do is provide me with a service at a standard somewhat above p**spoor.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

..... assuming the CB is not providing my customer with any value (which he is not) then the least he could do is provide me with a service at a standard somewhat above p**spoor.

If you have a CB which is providing p**spoor service, why do you put up with them? What other vendor do you stay with if they provide poor service?

 

[Paul Simpson]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

If you have a CB which is providing p**spoor service, why do you put up with them? What other vendor do you stay with if they provide poor service?

<snip>I am just going through a process of moving our certification from one CB to another. The decision to move wasn't mine and the choice of CB wasn't either. We are now in the middle of the process from hell. <snip>

I could go into the internal politics but won't. The above summarizes the situation.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

If you have a CB which is providing p**spoor service, why do you put up with them? What other vendor do you stay with if they provide poor service?

It might surprise you to learn that lots of people do business with lousy providers of all kinds, and the people who are likely to be most aware of their lousiness are often powerless in making changes or even influencing such decisions.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

It might surprise you to learn that lots of people do business with lousy providers of all kinds, and the people who are likely to be most aware of their lousiness are often powerless in making changes or even influencing such decisions.

No surprise, sadly that is a common situation...though middle management can push for changes when they can.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

No surprise, sadly that is a common situation...though middle management can push for changes when they can.

And when they can't, consultants such as I get called in to collaborate with the successor managers or new owners after the first set of top managers has run the business into the latrine.

I'm sure a lot of consultants have mixed feelings when they learn about company managers playing the SNAFU game. It's kind of like watching your worst enemy go over a cliff in your new Ferrari! We hate that it's happening, but we realize an opportunity will soon open for some consultant to get employed or (if you have good insurance) to switch to a Maserati from a Ferrari.

 

[George Weiss]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

It seems it is clear from all the comments that there is a CB problem, and it is customer focus & quality?
The CBs are not performing. They are picking on minor issues, and avoiding the large ones. Is it on purpose? Is there a similarity to the smog industry slogan, "NO PASS then NO PAY"? Is competition for business a factor on stringent compliance auditing? There was a recent Elsmar audit post, with the question about total auditor/days-on-site. In the end the primary concern was possible excessive auditing depth, and over pay. The CB auditor is not a policeman with time to spend. Probable cause would open a very time-restricted inspection.
Being fair and even handed means CBs can not significantly expand an average look.
The people who want a deeper look will not get it, and those needing the covers pulled back will not.
I noticed the thread was concerned about a drop in head count.
A good follow on would be, "how can ISO 9001 bring more value to the certificate holder?
A place in time where auditors could mentor and advise customers effectively.

 

[AndyN]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

It seems it is clear from all the comment that there is a CB problem, and it is customer focus & quality?
The CBs are not performing. They are picking on minor issues, and avoiding the large ones. Is it on purpose? Is there a similarity to the smog industry slogan, "NO PASS then NO PAY"? Competition for business is a factor on stringent compliance auditing. There was a recent Elsmar audit post, with the question about total auditor/days-on-site. In the end the primary concern was over auditing, and over pay. The CB auditor is not a policeman with time to spend. Probable cause would open a very time-restricted inspection. Being fair and even handed means CBs can not significantly expand an average look.
The people who want a deeper look will not get it, and those needing the covers pulled back will not.
I noticed the thread was concerned about a drop in head count.
A good follow on would be, "how can ISO 9001 bring more value to the certificate holder?
A place in time where auditors could mentor and advise customers in effectively.

I'd beg to differ from your wide-sweeping generalizations! Some CBs may have a problem...To suggest that the drop in certificates is wholly due to CB performance is bizarre. You'd have to come up with some compelling data, not just a few (relatively) small number of posts here at the Cove....

 

[George Weiss]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Hello Andy,
This forum is not about agreement in vanilla subject discussions. We will not solve the riddle of life here, but will meet others, make friends, Help one another, and disagree. That is all cool with me. My observations are just ignorance based sometimes. But they are sometimes very true. I am just an observer of the effects. I am just chiming in. One of 2009+ people viewing the posts on this discussion thread. I hope my view adds another post, as it has. I am sorry if I somehow offended you, or your view. I hope you had a happy thanks giving. I am learning from this thread, and all the others I read, and post on. I offer my 2cents. I know your view is more valuable, and with more knowledge. I respect your view(s). I thank you for your comment(s). my only data is observations, and the conflict of interest which money and pay provides. Getting paided to PASS is a problem. The only unbiased process is a machine. It doen't take years of exposure to the certification process to understand what happens. I am mentioning a symptom. I have not performed a statistical analysis on this problem. I have no numbers. I point no fingers at any one company or person. ISO17025 is a reason for ISO9001 delcine. It replaces and expands on ISO9001 with some similar general requirements and new technical ones. The list is long, but the effect of ISO17025 can not be effectively desputed, it is obvious. Thanks for defending the CB ranks! I just thought of another one! People getting tired of the certification process, and just declaring they are compliant. A means of doing what is wanted to the level wanted, with intention to be compliant. Of course we have the companies that just fold back and say to their customers, "come and servey/audit us", for ISO comliance. If you are good they will come. I have seen it done. USA Corporate profits are skyrocketing in 2010. Obviously something is being done right.
Sincerely, George
p.s. we will not solve the problem, but sure have a time posting.