Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America (circa 2010)

[AndyN]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

George, the simple fact is, working for a CB, we deal with the data each and every day and have done for a number of years. That data doesn't validate your comments, I'm sorry to tell you! As you say it's not a matter of agreement and I realize you're not commenting on any one CB, but the facts remain that we in the CB industry, followed by the consultants who help organizations to achieve certification are in the most solid place to feedback.

 

[George Weiss]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Thanks for the response, and available perspective.
I am a bit jaded, so my comments must be also. With that in mind:
I have not doubt about your solid figures. From many viewpoints there could be little debate. I am viewing the ISO 9001 process from a shop floor perspective, (where the tire hits the road), in the course of my life’s experiences. In smaller businesses I have observed the ISO 9001 paint applied, and the car never really changing course. I have been witness to endless abuses of expressed quality. I came away with the observation that ISO 9001 and other methods allowed people to run and manage a business, with nice metrics, and flow charts, with little or no direct understanding, of many sometimes critical problems, (gaps in performance). In some cases it did appear as ISO 9001 was only used as a placard declaring quality honesty. It seemed to me that the ISO 9001 Certification was no better than the people who had it, because no-one would dig deep enough into the ISO 9001 paint job. I have heard the words often, that a well run business will remain a well run business after ISO 9001 certification, and a poor business may remain a poor business also. I am disappointed by the in-trenched, denying, cut throat business practices, that leave the least paid people of the company effectively prostituting they’re beliefs to complete unrealistic schedules and plans. And all the validations and verifications say all is well. So why Certify?
I noticed this is the 100th post for this thread. Is there a pin for that?

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Thanks for the response, and available perspective.
I am a bit jaded, so my comments must be also. With that in mind:
I have not doubt about your solid figures. From many viewpoints there could be little debate. I am viewing the ISO 9001 process from a shop floor perspective, (where the tire hits the road), in the course of my life’s experiences. In smaller businesses I have observed the ISO 9001 paint applied, and the car never really changing course. I have been witness to endless abuses of expressed quality. I came away with the observation that ISO 9001 and other methods allowed people to run and manage a business, with nice metrics, and flow charts, with little or no direct understanding, of many sometimes critical problems, (gaps in performance). In some cases it did appear as ISO 9001 was only used as a placard declaring quality honesty. It seemed to me that the ISO 9001 Certification was no better than the people who had it, because no-one would dig deep enough into the ISO 9001 paint job. I have heard the words often, that a well run business will remain a well run business after ISO 9001 certification, and a poor business may remain a poor business also. I am disappointed by the in-trenched, denying, cut throat business practices, that leave the least paid people of the company effectively prostituting they’re beliefs to complete unrealistic schedules and plans. And all the validations and verifications say all is well. So why Certify?
I noticed this is the 100th post for this thread. Is there a pin for that?

George, I'll present the view from the other side. Just for the record, I am also a "grey hair." Been doing this for 14 years as a 3rd party auditor (TS, ISO, EMS and 8001) and consultant/trainer.

I agree there are many "ISO companies" that behave like you describe, but there are also many who actually take it seriously, apply themselves, and become very good performers as a result. It would be hard to say what the percentage would be in each camp.

I do know that of the several hundred companies that I worked with, almost all of them (95%+) took it pretty seriously during the period I worked with them. Many were already doing it, and I just helped them see the path more clearly. Some took a little more prodding.

My point is that it is the job of the auditors, consultants, Q Managers and CBs to guide and prod their companies into the right direction. I often liken it to being a missionary in a foreign field. Our job is to preach the gospel. I realize that entrenched top management does not always support it, and some companies are even sinking ships. But, I have found that where there is the most complaining, I usually also find many things the internal "missionaries" have not been doing either.

I think there is plenty of blame to be spread around. And there are a few bad CBs. But, I would want to focus on solutions. Most companies actually want to improve, but they don't understand how ISO will do that. The "quality evangelists" need to help them understand the message. They need to do a much more effective job of understanding and disseminating the message. I have been told countless times by new clients that "my approach" was much more useful than some who were there before me.

Are we all doing our part as well as we can, or are we just looking for the speck in the others' eyes...?

 

[bobdoering]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

George, I'll present the view from the other side. Just for the record, I am also a "grey hair." Been doing this for 14 years as a 3rd party auditor (TS, ISO, EMS and 8001) and consultant/trainer.

I do know that of the several hundred companies that I worked with, almost all of them (95+) took it pretty seriously during the period I worked with them. Many were already doing it, and I just helped them see the path more clearly. Some took a little more prodding.

Helmut audited a company I worked for back in QS9000 days. He was a genuinely helpful auditor. Look at the other side of the coin - there are bad auditees, too - usually thanks to unresponsive management. They can make any good idea look bad.

Consider this: variation is the way of the world. Oh, and by the way....it's not all normal!

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Helmut audited a company I worked for back in QS9000 days. He was a genuinely helpful auditor. Look at the other side of the coin - there are bad auditees, too - usually thanks to unresponsive management. They can make any good idea look bad.

Consider this: variation is the way of the world. Oh, and by the way....it's not all normal!

Sometimes, it seems like darn little of it is normal...
(btw, thanks for the kind comment...)

 

[Big Jim]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

George, I'll present the view from the other side. Just for the record, I am also a "grey hair." Been doing this for 14 years as a 3rd party auditor (TS, ISO, EMS and 8001) and consultant/trainer.

I agree there are many "ISO companies" that behave like you describe, but there are also many who actually take it seriously, apply themselves, and become very good performers as a result. It would be hard to say what the percentage would be in each camp.

I do know that of the several hundred companies that I worked with, almost all of them (95+) took it pretty seriously during the period I worked with them. Many were already doing it, and I just helped them see the path more clearly. Some took a little more prodding.

My point is that it is the job of the auditors, consultants, Q Managers and CBs to guide and prod their companies into the right direction. I often liken it to being a missionary in a foreign field. Our job is to preach the gospel. I realize that entrenched top management does not always support it, and some companies are even sinking ships. But, I have found that where there is the most complaining, I usually also find many things the internal "missionaries" have not been doing either.

I think there is plenty of blame to be spread around. And there are a few bad CBs. But, I would want to focus on solutions. Most companies actually want to improve, but they don't understand how ISO will do that. The "quality evangelists" need to help them understand the message. They need to do a much more effective job of understanding and disseminating the message. I have been told countless times by new clients that "my approach" was much more useful than some who were there before me.

Are we all doing our part as well as we can, or are we just looking for the speck in the others' eyes...?

My experience pretty much matches yours. I'm not sure that I would go as high as 95%, but most certainly most companies do want to live by the standard. It's a painful experience to work with companies who obviously don't.

 

[Marc]

Growth and Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America

We're talking about these numbers from the ISO Org report, correct?

 

[Paul Simpson]

It might surprise you to learn that lots of people do business with lousy providers of all kinds, and the people who are likely to be most aware of their lousiness are often powerless in making changes or even influencing such decisions.

Absolutely, Jim. Someone had the bright idea of moving certification from multiple CBs under local choice and control to a single CB across the group. As mentioned, the decision was made before I joined the business and, suffice to say, if I had been on board we wouldn't have selected this provider as they are known to me - not in a good way!

And when they can't, consultants such as I get called in to collaborate with the successor managers or new owners after the first set of top managers has run the business into the latrine.

I'm sure a lot of consultants have mixed feelings when they learn about company managers playing the SNAFU game. It's kind of like watching your worst enemy go over a cliff in your new Ferrari! We hate that it's happening, but we realize an opportunity will soon open for some consultant to get employed or (if you have good insurance) to switch to a Maserati from a Ferrari.

I hope it isn't going to get to the point where anybody leaves the business over our performance and, to be fair, certification remains a minor part of our management system and is therefore unlikely to affect this.

To be fair on the people who made this decision they didn't mess us up deliberately - they were already using the CB and used their position of power to keep 'their' CB instead of 'ours' - I'd like to feel I would be more reasonable in their position but couldn't swear to it.

It's unlikely a consultant could help in this case. We have sufficient expertise in dealing with CBs across the group to be able to advise on CB selection.

The frustrating thing is the amount of our time taken in managing our supplier that could usefully be employed elsewhere. That and the internal politics of criticizing the chosen CB while giving our corpoate guys enough 'wiggle room' that they don't see it as a head on assault .... did I mention the cultural differences?

 

[Wes Bucey]

Failure to assimilate with or accommodate the controlling culture in a takeover or merger is a major factor when the expected "synergies" of the takeover don't materialize.

There are countless vacant buildings and folks out of work when the controlling bosses in a takeover decide to cut their aggravation dealing with a "resistant" acquisition and just shut it down, only to take the technology and equipment to a new location and start with folks who fit THEIR culture.

The reality in corporate life for the past 30 years has been
"The only real constant is CHANGE!"

There are consultant firms making a excellent living from doing one thing and only one thing:
"identifying the keepers from the superfluous when a major closure is in planning."
A large part of the identification process is determining who is adapting to, and even adopting the controlling culture and those who are obstructionist. (Obstructionist = superfluous) So it is true when Boris writes

That and the internal politics of criticizing the chosen CB while giving our corpoate guys enough 'wiggle room' that they don't see it as a head on assault .... did I mention the cultural differences?

Other consultants specialize in educating members of both cultures to create a blended culture which is better than either of the two preceding ones. The first hurdle for the consultant is helping the top bosses see that the dynamism of the blended cultures is likely to result in a much more robust hybrid that either of the two "pure" predecessors.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: Growth and Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America

We're talking about these numbers from the ISO Org report, correct?

As I recall, the actual chart at the beginning of the thread presented the data differently, but the increases/decreases look about the same. Total numbers worldwide increased, North America declined. But a bigger decline in 2007.