Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America (circa 2010)

[Big Jim]

Re: What are the reasons for the decline of ISO 9001 registrations in North America?

In my opinion, that is one of the reasons for the decline: ludicrous feedback from CB auditors, in many cases. If I were in the receiving end of an external audit and got this type of "audit result", I would seriously question the value of that relationship.

It is hard to accept that 3[sup]rd[/sup] party auditors still don't understand the meaning of value added audits. As I mentioned already, part of the non-conformance triggering process for CB auditors should have a step that would force the auditor to ask him/herself: If I write up this non-conformance and the organization implements corrective action, can I assure the outcome results in a higher level of performance or provides additional confidence to interested parties? If the answer is NO, then, no non-conformance should be written.

Still, as I state that only accountability at all levels can save the accredited certification process from oblivion, if I were in the receiving end of a finding as the one Bev reported, I would be having a serious conversation with a manager at the CB and make them understand that, if this is representative of their auditors performance, they would not be my CB for long.

CB's will only remain accountable to the intent of the certification process if the proper stakeholders keep us straight.

I completely agree and often encourage clients to appeal an outlandish nonconformance. It amazes me as to how often the clients are reluctant to do so. They don't want to anger the auditor or they don't want to make waves. As long as they are willing to be abused, they will be abused. It doesn't seem to matter who the CB is either.

 

[JaneB]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

All opinion, really (admittedly).
I'll add mine: I query how accurate and valid these reported results actually are.

They show a huge drop in Australian (& NZ registrations), more than halving:

Aust from 17,440 (2006) down 8,773 (2008)

If that were so, I'd have some idea of it & there'd be signs.
For example, I might expect that my company phone calls would dwindle. There'd be fewer (zero?) leads and enquiries coming in. There'd be heaps of people looking for work. CBs wouldn't be flat out trying to recruit good auditors. And professional contacts, including other consultants, auditors, CB personnel etc, would be moaning about the downturn and poor outlook.

Not a single one of which is happening. Indeed, the reverse.

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

All opinion, really (admittedly).
I'll add mine: I query how accurate and valid these reported results actually are.

They show a huge drop in Australian (& NZ registrations), more than halving:

Aust from 17,440 (2006) down 8,773 (2008)

If that were so, I'd have some idea of it & there'd be signs.
For example, I might expect that my company phone calls would dwindle. There'd be fewer (zero?) leads and enquiries coming in. There'd be heaps of people looking for work. CBs wouldn't be flat out trying to recruit good auditors. And professional contacts, including other consultants, auditors, CB personnel etc, would be moaning about the downturn and poor outlook.

Not a single one of which is happening. Indeed, the reverse.

It seems to me we have one of the best demographics of quality professionals in the world right here in the Cove. The anecdotal evidence from that demographic [so far] appears to contradict the results of the survey.

I suggest there is no real benefit to be gained from further berating the survey here in the Cove. Folks who are seriously concerned the apparently flawed survey may have a negative impact on industry and instigate a headlong rush to drop registrations should probably direct their surmises, complaints and queries to the publisher of the survey, requesting concrete validation of the survey results. My guess, based on similar situations in the past, is that those requests will be ignored. What a shame!

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

I query how accurate and valid these reported results actually are.

They show a huge drop in Australian (& NZ registrations), more than halving:

Aust from 17,440 (2006) down 8,773 (2008)

If that were so, I'd have some idea of it & there'd be signs.

Remember the comment from the 2008 Survey

Because of these downward revisions, the ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 totals for the countries indicated appear to have dropped sharply in the 2008 survey, when in fact this is an impression created by the over-inflation of figures in 2006 and 2007.

 

[JaneB]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Remember the comment from the 2008 Survey

Yes, meant to acknowledge that, and thanks for the reminder.
It does make it all rather confusing though. At least to this brain.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

I agree with some of Sidney's concern about the value-added aspect of auditing. I know that is the part my client's appreciate the most. They want to get benefits from these audits, and not just silly parking tickets.

When I see the term "value added" in this context, it's almost always coming from someone who's trying to sell something, and hardly ever from the people who are being targeted. Right now, with the statistics being what they are, it shouldn't be surprising that CBs and others who stand to lose business would be rethinking their marketing strategies. Nonetheless, I remain unconvinced that "value added" has any real meaning.

Speaking only for myself, I hope--as I always have--that a CB auditor will be knowledgeable, deport herself professionally, do an objective survey of the QMS in the time allotted and then get the hell out and let me get back to work.

Can someone give me a concrete example of a service that a CB auditor might perform that is (a) not "consulting" and (b) adds value? Of course I assume that if a claim to add value is made it will be somehow quantifiable. Otherwise the word "value" is definitely being abused.

 

[Pancho]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Can someone give me a concrete example of a service that a CB auditor might perform that is (a) not "consulting" and (b) adds value? Of course I assume that if a claim to add value is made it will be somehow quantifiable. Otherwise the word "value" is definitely being abused.

Hmm... I don't believe that you need to be able to quantify value in order to know it is there.

Our folks seem to be much more concerned of possible NCs detected by the external auditor than those detected by the internal ones. This may not be a rational behavior, but when you think about it, our propensity for irrational behavior is exactly the reason we need a qms in the first place.

A knowledgeable auditor adds value by focusing on the important bits and by prompting our people to make sure the processes, documentation and records are all consistent and properly applied and kept. I don't know how to quantify this value, but it is there.

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Hmm... I don't believe that you need to be able to quantify value in order to know it is there.

Then if I say it's there, but you say it's not, we just have to leave it at that, I guess. A concept that explains everything explains nothing.

<snip>
A knowledgeable auditor adds value by focusing on the important bits and by prompting our people to make sure the processes, documentation and records are all consistent and properly applied and kept. I don't know how to quantify this value, but it is there.

I'm still looking for a concrete example. Are you saying that "the organization" isn't likely to know what its "important bits" are or how to deal with them effectively without the help of a third-party auditor who's not supposed to be acting as a consultant? At what point does such a failure of leadership constitute an ineffective system?

 

[JaneB]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Speaking only for myself, I hope--as I always have--that a CB auditor will be knowledgeable, deport herself professionally, do an objective survey of the QMS in the time allotted and then get the hell out and let me get back to work.

Ah, me too. Would that this were always the case.

But I would add: I hope the auditor leaves behind a client perception that the audit was a valuable exercise.

Again, some do this; some don't.

What I mean by 'a valuable exercise' can be as simple as a perception that their system was thoroughly and professionally tested by a skilled auditor. That the 'test questions' were directed at suitable topics, issues of risk, importance, etc etc (not trivial). And thus that the objective findings on the status of the system, whether 'good' or 'bad' status are of use.

I repeat: not all auditors do this, even if they do the things you listed. Indeed, I've seen people quite staggered (after a change of auditor or CB) at the difference between an audit that was a valuable exercise and one that wasn't.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Can someone give me a concrete example of a service that a CB auditor might perform that is (a) not "consulting" and (b) adds value?

I could give you hundreds of examples, but, let me limit myself to just a couple; both are real-world cases, not academic exercises, not fantasy.

1. Major aerospace organization with multiple sites all over the World. Auditor writes up a major non-conformity, after verifying that purchase orders being placed with suppliers had totally incorrect quality clauses listed. Root cause analysis identifies that the recently installed procurement module of the ERP system had a bug and was identifying wrong clauses for the products and commodities being procured. This problem, left unattended for a longer time would have cost the organization millions of dollars in wrongly procured parts and could have been the subject of a major regulatory fine.

2. Supplier of solar cells and panels for spacecraft applications (no longer in business). While auditing their supplier monitoring processes, I realized that they had a process owner that was too lenient with their own suppliers. Request for corrective actions lingered for months on end, with no resolution. Requests for prompt corrections went unattended for weeks. That was a MAJOR disconnect between the registrant's customer expectations and how they fail to flow down the sense of urgency towards their direct suppliers. Since the registrant was in the critical path of timely spacecraft launches, it was just a matter of time until a serious issue would happen. Situation was reported as an observation during the exit meeting. Top management looked dumbfounded as how the dysfunction/leniency with suppliers was allowed to creep in.

Any time an auditor identifies an ineffective process and keeps the registrant accountable to meaningful root cause analysis and effective corrective action, s/he is adding value; either to the registrant or their customers.

While The Cove is full of idiotic, moronic, stupid examples of audit findings, the opposite happens on a daily basis. They just don't get reported here. Everyday, competent auditors identify process failures, which, when corrected, result in higher system performance. I feel sorry for those organizations and individuals who have never had a chance of being assessed by competent, professional, value-adding auditors. If you have only experienced the moronic kind, you might think all auditors would be like that. But you would be wrong. There are many extremely professional 3[sup]rd[/sup]-party auditors out there who assist organizations in improving their performance without ever compromising their impartiality.