Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America (circa 2010)

[JaneB]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Great examples, Sidney. Another:
In doing a certification audit for an IT consulting firm, the external auditor queried the (automatic) back-up process. In doing so, he uncovered the fact that the backup process (which they relied upon & 'knew' was working because it was all automagic) in fact wasn't backing up ANY new/changed files at all. And hadn't been doing so for almost a month since something very minor had been changed, and the backup system had failed to re-initialise. If he had not challenged that process, it could well have been the case for a number more months.

The implications for that company were truly huge, as they maintained a unique and hourly changing, multimillion dollar database on behalf of a major client. If it had failed during that month, they'd have been utterly unable to recover it.

Any time an auditor identifies an ineffective process and keeps the registrant accountable to meaningful root cause analysis and effective corrective action, s/he is adding value; either to the registrant or their customers.

While The Cove is full of idiotic, moronic, stupid examples of audit findings, the opposite happens on a daily basis. They just don't get reported here. Everyday, competent auditors identify process failures, which, when corrected, result in higher system performance.

Yes, indeed. Agree strongly.

I feel sorry for those organizations and individuals who have never had a chance of being assessed by competent, professional, value-adding auditors. If you have only experienced the moronic kind, you might think all auditors would be like that. But you would be wrong. There are many extremely professional 3[sup]rd[/sup] auditors out there who assist organizations in improving their performance without ever compromising their impartiality.

Well said.

Yes, the moronic and trivial are almost the only examples ever posted. And yes, they're moronic and trivial. But they are NOT indicative of the 'normal' everyday auditor or audit. Far from it.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

If there is a backlash against ISO 9000 it really belongs with the registrars for not policing themselves.

CB's are one of the stakeholders of the process, but definitely not the only one. As long as organizations don't keep their CBs and respective auditors accountable to the intent of the process, they themselves are not being accountable either. As long as customers don't keep their suppliers's CB's accountable to the intent of the accredited management system certification process, they are not accountable either. As long as the accreditation bodies don't weed out the unscrupulous CB's they are not accountable either.

Only accountability and actions at all levels can make this a value adding, sustainable effort. [cliche'] If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. [/cliche']

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

I could give you hundreds of examples, but, let me limit myself to just a couple; both are real-world cases, not academic exercises, not fantasy.

1. Major aerospace organization with multiple sites all over the World. Auditor writes up a major non-conformity, after verifying that purchase orders being placed with suppliers had totally incorrect quality clauses listed. Root cause analysis identifies that the recently installed procurement module of the ERP system had a bug and was identifying wrong clauses for the products and commodities being procured. This problem, left unattended for a longer time would have cost the organization millions of dollars in wrongly procured parts and could have been the subject of a major regulatory fine.

2. Supplier of solar cells and panels for spacecraft applications (no longer in business). While auditing their supplier monitoring processes, I realized that they had a process owner that was too lenient with their own suppliers. Request for corrective actions lingered for months on end, with no resolution. Requests for prompt corrections went unattended for weeks. That was a MAJOR disconnect between the registrant's customer expectations and how they fail to flow down the sense of urgency towards their direct suppliers. Since the registrant was in the critical path of timely spacecraft launches, it was just a matter of time until a serious issue would happen. Situation was reported as an observation during the exit meeting. Top management looked dumbfounded as how the dysfunction/leniency with suppliers was allowed to creep in.

Any time an auditor identifies an ineffective process and keeps the registrant accountable to meaningful root cause analysis and effective corrective action, s/he is adding value; either to the registrant or their customers.

While The Cove is full of idiotic, moronic, stupid examples of audit findings, the opposite happens on a daily basis. They just don't get reported here. Everyday, competent auditors identify process failures, which, when corrected, result in higher system performance. I feel sorry for those organizations and individuals who have never had a chance of being assessed by competent, professional, value-adding auditors. If you have only experienced the moronic kind, you might think all auditors would be like that. But you would be wrong. There are many extremely professional 3[sup]rd[/sup]-party auditors out there who assist organizations in improving their performance without ever compromising their impartiality.

Thanks for the examples. I see now that "adding value" means "doing something useful," and I accept that idea. I think it's more than a little disturbing, however, that CBs feel they have to trumpet the idea that their auditors actually do what they're being paid to do.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

I think it's more than a little disturbing, however, that CBs feel they have to trumpet the idea that their auditors actually do what they're being paid to do.

Compared to

(having just received a finding from our registrar because the 'customer comment cards' used in our voluntary employee cafeteria were not on a document controlled form and the filled out cards were not kept as 'quality records'.)

is an improvement...

 

[7Sigma]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Two large companies (100+K employees) that I worked with targeted the entire QMS staff in the first round of layoffs. That pretty much tells how much the managers valued the system.

They did not see ISO/QMS as vital to the core business. I suppose that most participants here will acknowledge that businesses often believe things are better than they truly are before those things are measured. Laying off the QMS staff can result in "See no evil, Hear no evil" -- at least for a while.

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

...Yes, indeed. Agree strongly.

Well said.

Yes, the moronic and trivial are almost the only examples ever posted. And yes, they're moronic and trivial. But they are NOT indicative of the 'normal' everyday auditor or audit. Far from it.

Jim Wynne, I think Jane's comment is the answer for your question why CB's occasionally feel constrained to defend their audits as "value-added." We aren't here everyday trumpeting that we perform good work, day after day. But, one bad example can undo 100 good ones. I liked Sidney's examples. I have helped many too. And many other skilled auditors that I have met.

But, not all auditors are good. A significant percentage of auditors I encounter do not do great work for a variety of reasons. But then, not all Q Mgrs. always do good work. Or, for that matter, Engineers, Managers, Doctors, Pilots, Politicians... etc....

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Jim Wynne, I think Jane's comment is the answer for your question why CB's occasionally feel constrained to defend their audits as "value-added." We aren't here everyday trumpeting that we perform good work, day after day. But, one bad example can undo 100 good ones. I liked Sidney's examples. I have helped many too. And many other skilled auditors that I have met.

But, not all auditors are good. A significant percentage of auditors I encounter do not do great work for a variety of reasons. But then, not all Q Mgrs. always do good work. Or, for that matter, Engineers, Managers, Doctors, Pilots, Politicians... etc....

Reminds me of the most sobering comment I ever heard in a hospital waiting room after I accompanied a friend with a suspected heart attack. It was delivered as a riddle:

Q: "What do you call the student who graduates at the very bottom of his medical school class?"
A: "Doctor."
​

 

[AndyN]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Two large companies (100+K employees) that I worked with targeted the entire QMS staff in the first round of layoffs. That pretty much tells how much the managers valued the system.

They did not see ISO/QMS as vital to the core business. I suppose that most participants here will acknowledge that businesses often believe things are better than they truly are before those things are measured. Laying off the QMS staff can result in "See no evil, Hear no evil" -- at least for a while.

I'm not surprised really! Often - I don't know if this post is an example - but the quality system created often gives no value to management. We see examples each and every day of documents which are more about ISO references, format, headings and overly complex numberings that the actual content and its value to management as a means of controlling business process. Added to which we see ineffective internal audits following ISO checklists and complaints about corrective actions not being taken seriously.

Of course, there's a big difference between maintaining a system and the value it brings and obtaining/maintaining 3rd party certification - which is what this thread is about....

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

I'm not surprised really! Often - I don't know if this post is an example - but the quality system created often gives no value to management. We see examples each and every day of documents which are more about ISO references, format, headings and overly complex numberings that the actual content and its value to management as a means of controlling business process. Added to which we see ineffective internal audits following ISO checklists and complaints about corrective actions not being taken seriously.

Of course, there's a big difference between maintaining a system and the value it brings and obtaining/maintaining 3rd party certification - which is what this thread is about....

Of course, Deming [and I] would say "Management reaps what it sows!"

Ineffective or off-focus quality efforts are initiated by management as are good quality efforts; if not developing good quality programs consistent with international Standards, what the hell is the value of management?

 

[7Sigma]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

. . . We see examples each and every day of documents which are more about ISO references, format, headings and overly complex numberings that the actual content and its value to management as a means of controlling business process.

I could not agree more. A company with poor quality can certainly get certified as long as it is following its process documents. The focus is too often on the rules rather than the quality.

Jim Wynne says it well in his signature:
Too much time is spent worrying about how to count things, and not enough in understanding what counts.