Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America (circa 2010)

[JaneB]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Hmmm. I did not give an example

I was referring to this post of yours - apologies for my error as I remembered 1 but you actually said 2.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

I'd be very interested in knowing more about why you think a client wouldn't complain to their CB...

That is a good question, Andy. But, and unfortunately, many organizations are just interested in attaining and maintaining the certification. A competent CB auditor is secondary to the business need of keeping the certificate to appease a customer.

Many times, a bad auditor is "welcomed" simply because s/he is a known quantity. The bad auditor pretends to audit and issue non-conformities. The registrant "pretends" to do corrective action and the façade certification is maintained. Everyone is happy until a real problem happens and the registrant's customers demand answers....

 

[Big Jim]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

That is a good question, Andy. But, and unfortunately, many organizations are just interested in attaining and maintaining the certification. A competent CB auditor is secondary to the business need of keeping the certificate to appease a customer.

Many times, a bad auditor is "welcomed" simply because s/he is a known quantity. The bad auditor pretends to audit and issue non-conformities. The registrant "pretends" to do corrective action and the façade certification is maintained. Everyone is happy until a real problem happens and the registrant's customers demand answers....

How true.

 

[Big Jim]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

That may have been true in the days of the mantra "say what you do, do what you say" that someone at DuPont coined early on in the history of the rush to get certified in the USA...actually, ISO has NEVER been about "say what you do..." because it forces many organizations to put practices in place they never did before!

Today, the effectiveness of a system is not in the eye of the auditor! It is in the data management present as part of their review and conclusions of the suitability and effectiveness of their system!

Those who still cling to the mantra are well advised to get past that, or risk going the way of dinosaurs!

I don't remember the last time I used that phrase. Very early in my ISO experience I realized that it did not really reflect the standard. If anything, as you pointed out, it led to over documentation and tended to push toward perceiving the standard as being very company unfriendly.

 

[howste]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

I recently spoke at an ASQ meeting, and at one point during some Q&A, I encouraged the attendees to let their certification bodies know if they had bad audit experiences, ineffective audits, or invalid nonconformities. There were quite a few people who said they were genuinely afraid of retaliation if they complained. To me this seems completely foreign. I make it a point to encourage feedback in both opening and closing meetings, and make sure that they are aware of the appeals process.

As has been said here many times before, this kind of feedback to the CBs is critical to improve the process and to educate or weed out poor performing auditors.

 

[JaneB]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

I recently spoke at an ASQ meeting, and at one point during some Q&A, I encouraged the attendees to let their certification bodies know if they had bad audit experiences, ineffective audits, or invalid nonconformities. There were quite a few people who said they were genuinely afraid of retaliation if they complained.

It's a very common belief/fear, however. On the (very few) occasions I've witnesses audits I believed merited being brought to the attention of the relevant manager at the CB, this was the very first thing they all mentioned: But won't it affect our audit? What if the auditor gets us back? What if... what if... etc

Yes, it's 'foreign' to us. But not to people who lack experience in the field.

To me this seems completely foreign. I make it a point to encourage feedback in both opening and closing meetings, and make sure that they are aware of the appeals process.

Some auditors here highlight the appeals process. It's a comparatively rare one who encourages any feedback at all on their audit. (They're the seriously good ones on the whole.)

As has been said here many times before, this kind of feedback to the CBs is critical to improve the process and to educate or weed out poor performing auditors.

Yes, it is. And on the (again, I emphasise very) rare occasion I have complained, the CB responded in a way that could not be faulted. On other occasions, I've given relatively informal feedback on an auditor who didn't suit, needed more experience, needed more client focus etc. Again, good results. And no, no 'comeback' for the client. Except improved service!

 

[Wes Bucey]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

That is a good question, Andy. But, and unfortunately, many organizations are just interested in attaining and maintaining the certification. A competent CB auditor is secondary to the business need of keeping the certificate to appease a customer.

Many times, a bad auditor is "welcomed" simply because s/he is a known quantity. The bad auditor pretends to audit and issue non-conformities. The registrant "pretends" to do corrective action and the façade certification is maintained. Everyone is happy until a real problem happens and the registrant's customers demand answers....

Yep. Lots of folks would rather deal with the devil they know than one they don't.

I recently spoke at an ASQ meeting, and at one point during some Q&A, I encouraged the attendees to let their certification bodies know if they had bad audit experiences, ineffective audits, or invalid nonconformities. There were quite a few people who said they were genuinely afraid of retaliation if they complained. To me this seems completely foreign. I make it a point to encourage feedback in both opening and closing meetings, and make sure that they are aware of the appeals process.

As has been said here many times before, this kind of feedback to the CBs is critical to improve the process and to educate or weed out poor performing auditors.

As many will attest, Steve, not every auditor is as eager to throw a spotlight on the process. So, unless someone has you as the auditor or has heard you or someone like you speak at a business meeting (from any or all associations), they are not informed and FEAR (of losing a customer because of losing registration, of losing a job because of poor audit report, etc.) means they simply follow what Sidney has said above - "deal with the devil you know."

 

[tyker]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Chances are, this was the same Certification Body that was taken to court in the UK several years ago for alleged misleading advertisement practices. If I remember correctly it was John Seddon who took them to court for advertising that ISO 9001 certification would lead to higher productivity, efficiency, profitability, etc...

I don't know who Seddon sued so can't comment on that but does it make any difference? Don't all the big CBs make the same claims these days?

Like a previous poster, if I were in need of a CB, I would be looking for one which provided a low cost, efficient auditing/certification service and that's all.

I know most CB auditors mean well. I know there are many clever, hard working CB auditors. But when it comes to business improvement I want advice from someone with a track record of implementing improvement, not just someone who's seen others do it.

Perhaps the CBs are simply moving away from their natural market.

 

[AndyN]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

Like a previous poster, if I were in need of a CB, I would be looking for one which provided a low cost, efficient auditing/certification service and that's all.

This is an oxy-moron. Those CBs who are low(est) cost often employ staff who won't be equipped to do what you describe! I'm sure you mean 'reasonable cost', since there are many factors at play which affect the prices charged. In general terms, those which lead to the lowest cost - auditor pay, number of audit days etc adversely affect the outcome of the audit, credibility of certification etc.

 

[tyker]

Re: What are the Reasons for the Decline of ISO 9001 Registrations in North America?

This is an oxy-moron. Those CBs who are low(est) cost often employ staff who won't be equipped to do what you describe! I'm sure you mean 'reasonable cost', since there are many factors at play which affect the prices charged. In general terms, those which lead to the lowest cost - auditor pay, number of audit days etc adversely affect the outcome of the audit, credibility of certification etc.

I don't agree. Low cost and efficient are natural partners and why would auditor pay affect the outcome of the audit? Lean principles dictate that I shouldn't pay for services I neither want nor need.