Reasons to change certification body and typical costs

TPMB4

Quite Involved in Discussions
#1
Two questions so I'll start with the last one.

What's a typical fee for an auditor to certify to iso 9001: 2015? Based on size, number of sites and complexity in sure. But say 50 employees, one site and low to average level of complexity for an automotive manufacturer (2nd/3rd tier). Is there any difference in fees should you change auditor or will they just charge the same sort of fees as a full recertification cyclem? We're currently on a 3 year cycle of one 2 day recertification and two 1 day surveillance audits.

What reasons are valid to change auditor? We feel we're not getting value from our auditor. It doesn't feel like an improvement process more a box tick to keep our automotive work. Whilst I still stress about it because I want our system to improve it really only comes up with 30 minute corrective actions if any at all. Last surveillance had 2 OFIs that only one is remotely valid and worth pursuing.

Basically I guess I'm talking about pain to change. What's your view? Will it cost as much as a new certification to change? What's the implications? The certificate after change will have a very recent date, any implications on that?

We've had certification from the start up of the business so it's been a selling point in some ways. Instils trust I think. Could this be lost? Any implications? Do they get outweighed by the benefits of a good auditor improving your system?
 
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JoshuaFroud

Involved In Discussions
#2
Can I just confirm before anyone answers any further, by change auditor do you mean the individual auditor as a person or the auditing agency? Thanks.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#3
Remember, the CB's are trying to make money. It's a business and everything is done by contract, not on a whim.

What you're charged shouldn't change from what you're under contract to pay.

You can request at any time that an auditor not be sent back and is not welcome at your facility.
 

JoshuaFroud

Involved In Discussions
#5
To change Notified Body is a very similar status to getting accredited in the first place. There is likely to be a stage 1 and stage 2 assessment.

The rates are usually charged at a day rate for the auditor which is likely to be similar to what you currently pay, however different NB will charge different amounts. For example in the UK, Lloyds Register is known to be cheaper than BSI.

As for a valid reason, you do not need one. You pay them to do a role, if they are not doing it then change. Do be aware there will be an increased cost in moving to a new NB over continuing with your current body due to the increased man-hours to administer the transition.
 

Mark Meer

Trusted Information Resource
#6
Personally, if you're goal is to maintain certification, unless:
(a) your CB is making bad calls (you have to continually dispute);​
(b) their auditors are unprofessional;​
(c) they are unresponsive / have poor customer service; or​
(d) they are overcharging (other CBs offer more competitive quotes)​
then I wouldn't consider switching.

Don't expect the certification process to necessarily drive improvement - your CB offers a certification service.
Focus on your own internal audit processes for improvement instead.
 
#7
Two questions so I'll start with the last one.

What's a typical fee for an auditor to certify to iso 9001: 2015? Based on size, number of sites and complexity in sure. But say 50 employees, one site and low to average level of complexity for an automotive manufacturer (2nd/3rd tier). Is there any difference in fees should you change auditor or will they just charge the same sort of fees as a full recertification cyclem? We're currently on a 3 year cycle of one 2 day recertification and two 1 day surveillance audits.

What reasons are valid to change auditor? We feel we're not getting value from our auditor. It doesn't feel like an improvement process more a box tick to keep our automotive work. Whilst I still stress about it because I want our system to improve it really only comes up with 30 minute corrective actions if any at all. Last surveillance had 2 OFIs that only one is remotely valid and worth pursuing.

Basically I guess I'm talking about pain to change. What's your view? Will it cost as much as a new certification to change? What's the implications? The certificate after change will have a very recent date, any implications on that?

We've had certification from the start up of the business so it's been a selling point in some ways. Instils trust I think. Could this be lost? Any implications? Do they get outweighed by the benefits of a good auditor improving your system?
I didn't see any actual replies to your questions, so I'll offer the following:

Go to www.IAF.nu and look for "MD-5" under the publications tab. On page 12 (IIRC) there's a table of headcount and duration of audits (stage 1 plus stage 2) Stage 1 is usually 1 day on site, so the remainder is for the stage 2.

The cost/audit day is averaging at $1300(for ISO 9001 audits). Fees will vary all over the place. Application fees, document fees, corrective actions review fees. BE CAREFUL when getting quotes. READ THE SMALL PRINT. Travel will also be extra - sometimes at cost, other times with additional fees... Changing auditor should be simple. Changing CB should be fairly simple too. If you are currently with an ANAB (or similar IAF body) accredited CB, then changing CBs is straightforward. When I was in business development for a top 5 CB it was a cake walk. The next audit scheduled can be the one to hand over to the new CB - but it can't happen if you have open (major) ncs for example.

Changing actual auditors is simply a case of calling up and saying "Don't send them back", but you have to do something to avoid it happening again. Some CBs have auditor who are train wrecks in process, but they have no clue and it's clear that the auditor's paperwork isn't being reviewed by anyone who has a clue - otherwise you'd see some improvement.

Be aware though, that ditching an auditor may result in the CB having another one have to travel, so costs may increase. Also, many auditors are contractors and some CBs share auditors! One I knew, in CA, worked for 5 different CBs because of his specialty.
 
#8
To change Notified Body is a very similar status to getting accredited in the first place. There is likely to be a stage 1 and stage 2 assessment.

The rates are usually charged at a day rate for the auditor which is likely to be similar to what you currently pay, however different NB will charge different amounts. For example in the UK, Lloyds Register is known to be cheaper than BSI.

As for a valid reason, you do not need one. You pay them to do a role, if they are not doing it then change. Do be aware there will be an increased cost in moving to a new NB over continuing with your current body due to the increased man-hours to administer the transition.
Be careful not to confuse NB practices with CBs. Were aren't talking about accreditation - just changing an ISO 9001 certificate, so your comments are not exactly accurate - in this case the OP is asking about.
 

JoshuaFroud

Involved In Discussions
#9
Be careful not to confuse NB practices with CBs. Were aren't talking about accreditation - just changing an ISO 9001 certificate, so your comments are not exactly accurate - in this case the OP is asking about.
Fair point, poor choice of words on my part, using accredited when certificated would have been more appropriate.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#10
Review your registrar selection criteria first.

For example:

A. Find out from your customers and prospective customers which registrars or certificates they admire or value the most.
B. Do these registrars provide rigorous auditors or people who make suggestions?
C. Do these registrars and their auditors hold your top management to account (are they respected by TM)?

Criteria like these may result in better value from your registrar.
 
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