Record Falsification - What clause to raise a non-conformity?

M

Masculinie

#1
Wonder if anyone could suggest an appropriate clause under any ISO Managment-System Standards.... to raise a non-conformity for record falsification....

A management-system is record or data-based.... for data analysis and informed management decision for actions....

When record is falsified for the sake of an audit.... the complete data-based infrastructure of the managment system would collapse !!!

How does ISO Management-System Standards address this problem - a 17 years questions in my mind long since ISO 9001:1987 was born....

Masculine
:eek:
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Masculinie said:
Wonder if anyone could suggest an appropriate clause under any ISO Managment-System Standards.... to raise a non-conformity for record falsification....
Ok, I'll bite. How about
ISO 9001:2000 said:
Records shall be established and maintained to provide evidence of conformity to requirements and of the effective operation of the quality management system.
and
ISO 9001:2000 said:
The organization shall determine, collect and analyse appropriate data to demonstrate the suitability and effectiveness of the quality management system and to evaluate where continual improvement of the effectiveness of the quality management system can be made.
The use of falsified data would negate the possibility to carry those requrements out, wouldn't it? Mind you, I would not call it record falsification.... I would have to prove that the data is incorrect, and would settle with that.


/Claes
 
M

Masculinie

#3
Cheeky Questions

Here I'm referring to real record falsification and not any other matters....

To recall and illustrate.... I can clearly remember two counts spotted by my very observant lady Auditor....:

#1 (Comapny A)- a project supervisor showed his on-the-job training records with all signatures.... - when our lady Auditor laughed and laid out the few sets of training records.... 'look here.... all signatures by the workers are the same.... except that the training subjects are altered - obviously a few set of signatures were photocopied for entering of only the training subjects....' - and the project supervisor embarrassly admitted that all records were....

#2 (Company B) - a maintenance engineer showed his maintenance record for a cooling tower.... the record required the engineer to enter the date and items serviced.... - when our lady Auditor laughed again and asked the engineer.... 'what date is it today?".... the answer was '15th'.... pointing at his record, so said our lady Audtior.... 'and you have entered the service dates up to '22th'.... one week ahead?!'....

Here records were indeeed maintained as evidence for QMS conformance.... but they were not the true evidence.... - that was all....

Wonder if there is a more explicit clause that one could quote direct without having to get into any cheeky arguements.... when it is an obvious corporate 'crime' to have committed to 'fraud' (in financial world) as such....

Case raised for arguement sake.... to polish up the topic....

Thanks Marc.... (sorry I could only based on memory to recap the name.... hope I've got it right).... - it would have been better.... if we could read the text and author name while answering.... - a suggestion for continual improvement of the Cove....

Masculinie
:tg:
 
M

Masculinie

#4
Sorry Claes

Sorry Claes.... I've really got your name wrong.... - a million apologies.... now that I could turn back to read your original text.... without losing what I've typed....

S O R R I E
:bonk:
 
B

Bill Pflanz

#5
I have been on an audit where the auditee obviously lied. The nonconformance was writtten as determined during the audit. In addition, a separate meeting was held with the manager to explain the audit finding and to notify them that further lying would result in the information being sent to the senior manager for further action. Needless to say, I did not have any more problems with lying.

Another time, the auditee admitted they were wrong and thought they were being helpful in maintaining the records. I still wrote up the audit finding but did not go to their manager but let the person fix the problem themselves.

Deliberately lying during an audit is a personnel issue not just an audit issue. If the auditees feel the need to lie then there probably needs to be some local training on the purpose and intent of audits with all employees.

Bill Pflanz
 
#6
Masculinie said:
...if we could read the text and author name while answering....
You can, actually: All you need to do is to scroll down a bit... First you'll see a set of additional options, and then: there it is.
Masculinie said:
Sorry Claes.... I've really got your name wrong....
No worries, mate... :lol: I'll be able to live with it.

Oh, I almost forgot... Have a peek in this thread: Altering the actual date of the management review minutes

/Claes
 
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SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Trusted Information Resource
#7
If you have people falsifying records, you have much more to worry about than ISO. OK, let's take the photocopied training records. Basically you can no longer prove that the training actually took place, no?

I know that if I found someone routinely recording training that either did not take place, or showing attendees that were not there, I would have a talk with the manager(s) to bring them up to speed. We would then decide how to handle the situation as far as who would be the person talking to the offenders and it WOULD become a disciplinary issue.

Maybe I run around in rose colored glasses, but it deeply saddens me when I hear about people who lose their integrity to a job.
 
J

Jim Howe

#8
So ok where is the line in the sand? At a former employer (MIL-Q-9858A) the job was first released as a single lot. Then as the job progressed the planners decided that it would be best to partition the job into smaller lots. A number of new process control cards were assembled using a photocopy of the first three steps of the process including the Inspection operation and the inspectors stamp.
The inspector screamed fraud and the local DCAS agreed! The planners then prepared individual control cards and brought them to the inspector for stamp off (100's of cards). The inspector screamed again! why do I have to stamp off all these cards and I no longer have the material in front of me?
The Supervisor of inspection approached the inspector and advised her to stamp off all control cards and date them with current date. The inspector, having a great amount of respect for her supervisor dutifully stamped and dated all cards.
Now, aside from the waste of time and lack of planning by the planners, was fraud committed? You tell me! :frust:
 
M

Masculinie

#9
Administration Or Management ?!

Thanks to Steelmaid....

Bringing the matter up to the immediate superior or in the post-audit meeting would work - provided the culture is as such to condemn record fabrication....

When this is an 'acceptable culture' that 'everybody else does that anyway'.... to 'pass or fail' a certification audit.... - the situation is completely hopeless.... and so is its internal audit....

Posting of the question is merely for brain-teasing purpose.... - this is not to imply that everyone in the market is doing that....

Yet by testing the market during the last ISO 9001:2000 upgrading exercise.... many trainees kinda having the wiered smiles on their faces.... when you threw out a general statement to test the water - 'many people only worked 'slightly harder' a few nights beforehand to set the records in order.... prior to the auditor's visit.... I hope you are not one amongst them....'

Thanks Claes for a good direction to Management Review site.... similar points of concerns have been brought up.... - with no conclusion as yet....

How I wish ISO Standards have a direct clause to deal with record fabrication or falsification.... - to prevent organizations in settling at the paperwork level without actual management actions.... - after all we are dealing with a management system and not an administration system alone....

Having said that.... we were recently told that a company (and I must stress that the one and only one....) has settled its Management Representative at the Administrationor Clerical level.... - when contacted for ISO/FDIS 14001....

How many companies have actually perceived ISO management system as 'Procedures.Forms.Certificates'.... instead of 'System.Management.Performance'.... - fruits for thoughts....

Certification and its audit brings about the success of ISO management-system Standards by certificate-number growth over the years.... - if not careful it may also be accountable for the potential diminishing interests by not monitoring user satisfaction....
:lmao:

Masculinie
:eek:
 
M

Masculinie

#10
Cheating

Jim Howe said:
So ok where is the line in the sand? At a former employer (MIL-Q-9858A) the job was first released as a single lot. Then as the job progressed the planners decided that it would be best to partition the job into smaller lots. A number of new process control cards were assembled using a photocopy of the first three steps of the process including the Inspection operation and the inspectors stamp.
The inspector screamed fraud and the local DCAS agreed! The planners then prepared individual control cards and brought them to the inspector for stamp off (100's of cards). The inspector screamed again! why do I have to stamp off all these cards and I no longer have the material in front of me?
The Supervisor of inspection approached the inspector and advised her to stamp off all control cards and date them with current date. The inspector, having a great amount of respect for her supervisor dutifully stamped and dated all cards.
Now, aside from the waste of time and lack of planning by the planners, was fraud committed? You tell me! :frust:
I recall during our mock-up audit in a factory in a foreign country in 1993.... the QC was not around and the storekeeper was pasting all 'QC PASSED' stickers on each and every outgoing product without inspection.... - thinking that it would help the company to shop out its goods fast....

The basic problem here seems to be 'cultural' - and I have been pondering over the years.... how does ISO Standards deal with CHEATING cases.... head-on?!

Masculinie
:tg:
 
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