Reference Only Gages - "For Reference Only" Rationale (Reasoning/Justification)

P

Phil Fields

#1
Hello everyone!
I am not trying to open Pandora’s Box here, I am just trying to prep for a meeting that I have next week. The meeting is to define how we document the rational for "Reference Only Gages".

We have been directed by an external auditor to define the rational used for “For Reference Only” gages.

At this point in time I am not looking for the philosophical discussion (I am sure there are many opinions concerning this issue), what I am looking for is how others have dealt with this.

Thanks,
Phil :thanx:
 
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BradM

Staff member
Admin
#2
Re: "For Reference Only" Rational

The rational for reference only goes something like this:

Reference only stickers are used on any instrument which could elicit a value of some kind, but does not require being in the calibration/ performance verification program. Typically, these are instruments which are integral to some system/process (physically), and are difficult to remove/ isolate (physically).

The accuracy/error present in these instruments will not affect any process, system or quality decision.
 
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Randy

Super Moderator
#3
Re: "For Reference Only" Rational

I think...dangerous ground here....that a primary question needing an answer from you is "Why do you need to reference the gages?" If the gages are involved in a those items listed by Brad then they are necessary and operational and not really "reference only" gages. On the other hand, if their use is along the line of a simple Go-No Go to aid someone prior to using the "actual" instruments for decison making then they could be safely assumed to be just "reference gages".

The answer to your question is purely dependant upon the intent and use of the instruments.

Did I confuse you?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
Re: "For Reference Only" Rational

The rational for reference only goes something like this:

Reference only stickers are used on any instrument which could elicit a value of some kind, but does not require being in the calibration/ performance verification program. Typically, these are instruments which are integral to some system/process, and are difficult to remove/ isolate.

The accuracy/error present in these instruments will not affect any process, system or quality decision.
<pedantry>It's rationale. "Rational" is an adjective and "rationale" is a noun.</pedantry>

Although the OP asked to not get into the philosophical end of things, if a device will not affect any process, system or quality decision, why is it necessary?
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: "For Reference Only" Rational

Randy/Jim, I did not do a good job in my previous post. I am having to go from memory on the verbiage, so I did not do a good job. (Does that excuse me from the wrong word usage also? :) ).

An injection molding machine is a good example. There are like 20 gauges on it that are not used for anything. It's difficult/impossible to remove them, but serve no real purpose. Hence they are classified reference only.

The difficult/impossible to remove is the part I meant by integral.
 
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P

Phil Fields

#6
Re: "For Reference Only" Rational

Thank you for the replies so far. Like I said I am preparing for a meeting next week to discuss this issue. My 1st step would be to define what a REFERENCE gage is.
We have had some people here that place a reference only sticker on all gages not under calibration. This includes air and steam gages that are in areas where the is no manufacturing/inspection operations.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: "For Reference Only" Rational

Although the OP asked to not get into the philosophical end of things, if a device will not affect any process, system or quality decision, why is it necessary?
That's a really good question, and is a topic of discussion for another time. As I stated in prior conversations, we have had this discussion on the ASQ board, and Akio son steadfastly disagrees with Reference Only. Either check it, or get rid of it.

However, "reference only" does exist, arguably has a place/purpose, and is the subject of rationale. Another use of reference only are pressure gauges on regulators, where their value simply does not matter, and short of capping off the ports on the regulator, it's easier to just leave the gauges installed and marking them "for reference only".
 
M

madannc

#8
Re: Reference Only Gages - "For Reference Only" Rational

Back in 1998 I was working in a micro lab, they had a dedicated autoclave for sterilising, this autoclave had a had timer that at best was +10/-10 seconds out (worst case I remember was +25 secs) when used the parameters for sterilising plates/dishes etc was 8 - 12 mins (or somewhere around that) and we set the timer to 10 mins and labelled the timer for reference only. (knowing that the items would be in the autoclave for at least the minimum amount of time).

was this an incorrect use of the term "for reference only"?

The timer was intergal to the autoclave and could not easily be removed and was also old so timer replacement was not an option, the cost of replacement weighed against the risk did not (at the time) seem a good investment
 
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BradM

Staff member
Admin
#9
Re: Reference Only Gages - "For Reference Only" Rational

Back in 1998 I was working in a micro lab, they had a dedicated autoclave for sterilising, this autoclave had a had timer that at best was +10/-10 seconds out (worst case I remember was +25 secs) when used the parameters for sterilising plates/dishes etc was 8 - 12 mins (or somewhere around that) and we set the timer to 10 mins and labelled the timer for reference only. (knowing that the items would be in the autoclave for at least the minimum amount of time).

was this an incorrect use of the term "for reference only"?
My opinion only.... I would not have labeled it for reference only, and it would need to be verified. The value mattered; if the cycle went less than 10 minutes due to timer performance, then you would have a problem.

A timer on a microwave is a reference only device at my house. I don't ever know what to set it on, and I sit and look at it to heat to my desired level. The accuracy/error of it is irrelevant.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#10
Re: "For Reference Only" Rational

That's a really good question, and is a topic of discussion for another time. As I stated in prior conversations, we have had this discussion on the ASQ board, and Akio son steadfastly disagrees with Reference Only. Either check it, or get rid of it.

However, "reference only" does exist, arguably has a place/purpose, and is the subject of rationale. Another use of reference only are pressure gauges on regulators, where their value simply does not matter, and short of capping off the ports on the regulator, it's easier to just leave the gauges installed and marking them "for reference only".
Insofar as the gauges you allude to are concerned, it's easier still not to mark them at all. The concept of rationale comes in when someone asks why they're not in the gage system. You describe what gages need to be in the system (and why), not what gages don't need to be in the system.
 
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