Referenced Documents vs. Uncontrolled Documents - Differences?

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Faith123

#1
How will i classify referenced documents from uncontrolled documents?
What's the difference between the two(2)?

(***wondering... ***thinking.... whew! still can't convinced myself with the thoughts running in my head)

Hope someone could clearly differentiate my inquiries between the two....

Lots of Thanks,

Faith
 
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fireonce

#2
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

A referenced document,I think, is totally or partly mentioned in some documents of your QMS,such as manual, procedure,etc.If you want to see it, you can find it easily and quickly.
An uncontrolled document is out of your QMS.
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#3
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

How will i classify referenced documents from uncontrolled documents?
What's the difference between the two(2)?

Hope someone could clearly differentiate my inquiries between the two....

Lots of Thanks,

Faith

It should be noted, the standards do not mention "Reference" documents as a category. It simply says documents used for your quality system must be controlled.

Therefore, "Reference" documents are an idea many companies have basically invented. No formal definition, so let's do a process of elimination to determine a definition.

Important documents for the QMS must be controlled. So, if it is necessary for a document to be accurate, current and approved, it should probably be controlled. That control would include controlling distribution.

I recommend that if a document meets those 4 criteria, they should be controlled. If it doesn't meet those criteria, it can be "not controlled."

"Not controlled" is generally marked as "Uncontrolled" or "Reference Only." There is really no distinction between those two, unless you create the distinction in your QMS. Docs either are being controlled, or are not.
 
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potdar

#4
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

It should be noted, the standards do not mention "Reference" documents as a category. It simply says documents used for your quality system must be controlled.

Therefore, "Reference" documents are an idea many companies have basically invented. No formal definition, so let's do a process of elimination to determine a definition.

Important documents for the QMS must be controlled. So, if it is necessary for a document to be accurate, current and approved, it should probably be controlled. That control would include controlling distribution.

I recommend that if a document meets those 4 criteria, they should be controlled. If it doesn't meet those criteria, it can be "not controlled."

"Not controlled" is generally marked as "Uncontrolled" or "Reference Only." There is really no distinction between those two, unless you create the distinction in your QMS. Docs either are being controlled, or are not.
I agree and I differ.

A controlled document is well defined by you. By controlling distribution, the controller is taking a guarantee that any copy stamped as 'controlled' will always be accurate, current and approved.

An uncontrolled copy basically means that there is no such guarantee given by the controller.

Reference documents are not defined in the standard. Unless otherwise defined in your QMS, they are taken to mean documents which are external to your QMS, which are not approved by you but there are cross references to them in your QMS. Simplest example - ISO 9001:2000. The controller needs to ensure that these are correct and up to date.
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

I agree and I differ.

A controlled document is well defined by you. By controlling distribution, the controller is taking a guarantee that any copy stamped as 'controlled' will always be accurate, current and approved.

An uncontrolled copy basically means that there is no such guarantee given by the controller.

Reference documents are not defined in the standard. Unless otherwise defined in your QMS, they are taken to mean documents which are external to your QMS, which are not approved by you but there are cross references to them in your QMS. Simplest example - ISO 9001:2000. The controller needs to ensure that these are correct and up to date.
Potdar, I agree to both your individual "agree" and "disagree"
 
C

CliffK

#6
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

The theory behind, and appeal of, the reference document is that it can somehow exist outside the document control system. If there's a big stack of documents to be brought under control, the reference document approach can be very appealing indeed, as it seemingly avoids a lot of work. Just stamp the whole stack "for reference only," and you're done.

The danger lies in sticking reference labels on documents that actually describe the product or the manner of work. Documents of this kind need to be controlled because the absence of control has consequences.

For example, I know an organization that maintained several binders of "reference only" cable drawings in their manufacturing area. The absence of control caused them to build one cable incorrectly repeatedly. Each time the mis-wired cable caused a field failure. The cost of remedying the field failures was far greater than the cost of putting the documents under control would have been.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#7
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

What is YOUR definition of a referenced document, Faith?

Here, referenced documents are controlled, because they are referenced as needing to be used as a part of the process. "perform testing per ASTM XXX"

An uncontrolled document might be an owners manual for some piece of equipment, or a user's guide for software. Something that comes from an outside source and there is a) little chance that there will be a revision, b) little chance that a revision would affect our process, c) something we would use as a guideline but probably "tweak" to meet our requirements d) a printed copy of our electronic document(s).

It all depends on your definition. As stated earlier, ISO 9001 does not define a reference document within its document control requirements.
 
A

andygr

#8
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

Something that seemed so simple at first has me thinking now.
Referance- This is the outside basis on which you created a design, document, ect.. You’re identifying supporting data, process, information that you are not recreating/validating and using it as the basis for you’re your design, process ect.
The real crux of the mater is if this “reference” maintains any control over what you created. For example- I can extract knowledge in the form of information, formulas extra from references and include them in my internal document with out identifying the basis for how I came up with my Wild _ss Idea ( this is your education ). If the sole basis for control of the item being produced is my design/document (if the information in the references changes I would not be required to revalidate my design) then I would say that the reference is uncontrolled and should not be even be identified so to not imply that it is the basis for anything being presented.
I can not see offhand how you could honestly say that what you do is truly unique and fully self validated in most manufacturing situations and so you identify references as the basis for some aspects as the basis for your design/document. Since these sources have been peer reviewed and accepted then you save yourself some work from proving that these practices are appropriate and correct. You give them credit and include them in your document as references and once you do this then have to treat them as controlled and ensure that they in the future do not undermine the basis for your work.
:2cents:
 
M

METerry

#9
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

It is a great resource to be able to read all of your postings and I thank each of you for allowing all of us to "listen in". This may or may not be off the subject, at least slightly, but how does the defined "referenced" or "reference" document relate to "documents of external origin"?
As and example, we maintain operation and/or repair manuals for equipment, and in this case let's use a gear reducer manual produced by the manufacturer of the gear reducer. We are told that this is a "document of external origin" and that we must periodically contact the manufacturer to be sure we have the most current document. This discussion makes me question if it would be better considered a "reference document".
 
P

potdar

#10
Re: Difference between Referenced and Uncontrolled documents?

It is a great resource to be able to read all of your postings and I thank each of you for allowing all of us to "listen in". This may or may not be off the subject, at least slightly, but how does the defined "referenced" or "reference" document relate to "documents of external origin"?
As and example, we maintain operation and/or repair manuals for equipment, and in this case let's use a gear reducer manual produced by the manufacturer of the gear reducer. We are told that this is a "document of external origin" and that we must periodically contact the manufacturer to be sure we have the most current document. This discussion makes me question if it would be better considered a "reference document".
What you have talked about is a document of external origin that is being used as a reference document. Here you need to have the correct document available with you. The correct document is not necessarily the most uptodate one.

If your gear box is of 1982 vintage, and since then there have been 15 modifications introduced in the design by the manufacturer, you still need the document relating to the 1982 model. If you uhave upgraded your model in 1994, you should also upgrade your reference document to suit the equipment now available with you. It is now required to tell you how to maintain and operate the upgraded version. The manual for 2007 model is irrelevant.
 
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