Refusal to take Corrective Actions after the Internal Audit

D

Dubai_capi

#1
hi,

i faced this problem with one of the directors when he refused to look at the internal audit results. he is saying that " since our org doesnt have an approved work procedures and processes, then how can we accept corrective actions suggested by you", he said i cant improve something that is not written or documented.. so first lets document our procedures then suggest improvements..

what to do in this case.. pls advice:confused:
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
hi,

i faced this problem with one of the directors when he refused to look at the internal audit results. he is saying that " since our org doesnt have an approved work procedures and processes, then how can we accept corrective actions suggested by you", he said i cant improve something that is not written or documented.. so first lets document our procedures then suggest improvements..

what to do in this case.. pls advice:confused:
Capi,

Looks like you have been caught is a classic trap.

As auditor you are not suggesting improvements. You are reporting to the top management the facts about their management system not fulfilling their requirements.

Were the facts of the nonconformity agreed with the director?

Having agreed the nonconformity the director has no option but to initiate the corrective action.

Or perhaps you reported the wrong nonconformity when considering the maturity of your management system and its leaders?

Why not go back into audit mode and ask the director what the most important problems are? Then investigate what part of the management system failed to prevent those problems. Agree the facts and write up the nonconformity for some valuable corrective actions led by the director (not the auditor!).

John
 
Last edited:
J

JaneB

#3
hi,

i faced this problem with one of the directors when he refused to look at the internal audit results. he is saying that " since our org doesnt have an approved work procedures and processes, then how can we accept corrective actions suggested by you", he said i cant improve something that is not written or documented.. so first lets document our procedures then suggest improvements..

what to do in this case.. pls advice:confused:
Could you explain please: what was the scope of the audit, and if there are no documents, then what were you using to audit against? ie, if you went and audited and found problems (sounds as though you did if your audit report raises corrective actions), then what was your benchmark? If there are no written procedures/processes are there any written standards for work? Because if not, I have some empathy for the Director's point of view.
 
J

JaneB

#4
As auditor you are not suggesting improvements. You are reporting to the top management the facts about their management system not fulfilling their requirements.
John, I agree that's what is supposed to happen. But based on the (very limited) facts provided, is that in fact the case here?

If there are no written procedures or processes... then against what is the audit raising corrective actions? What IS the nonconformity or nonconformities being reported? I suggest we need to know that first.

But I do strongly agree with you that the auditor should not be the one suggesting improvements. In a mature and very healthy system, that may be welcome (or it may not). But it takes a long time to get there in many cases.
 

qusys

Trusted Information Resource
#5
hi,

i faced this problem with one of the directors when he refused to look at the internal audit results. he is saying that " since our org doesnt have an approved work procedures and processes, then how can we accept corrective actions suggested by you", he said i cant improve something that is not written or documented.. so first lets document our procedures then suggest improvements..

what to do in this case.. pls advice:confused:
Could you please better detail the problem?
However, I think that the absence of documented procedure , in the case the process is not effective, is a problem to be fixed and could carry to a non conformity during an audit, just for the case that the standardization is not being assured as well as the lacking of criteria gives origins to different behaviors among the actors.:bigwave:
 
#6
What are you asking the director to correct? What criteria are you using to audit against? You must give us more information for us to be able to help you. There are many good reasons why you would get this response - please don't automatically believe that you, the auditor, are correct...
 
D

Dubai_capi

#7
the scope of my audit was to document the work processes since we dont have one and to check the compliance to the requirements of iso:9001:2008.

also i audited against the iso:9001:2008 requirements.. i raised a non conformity against:
-quality policy and objectives. (not being communicated and measured).
-document control need to be implemented (we do have one in place but the division is not impelemnting it).
-also some processes needed to have some improvement to raise the effectiveness of the outcome and results.
- management reviews that need to be conducted..

the problem came from my improvements suggestd for certain work processes (un-documented). so shall i cancel the NCR related to those un-documented proceses..i think am gona do this.. and keep the ones related to the iso requirements. till then, processes we will finish from documenting all the work processes.
 
D

Dubai_capi

#8
John, I agree that's what is supposed to happen. But based on the (very limited) facts provided, is that in fact the case here?

If there are no written procedures or processes... then against what is the audit raising corrective actions? What IS the nonconformity or nonconformities being reported? I suggest we need to know that first.

But I do strongly agree with you that the auditor should not be the one suggesting improvements. In a mature and very healthy system, that may be welcome (or it may not). But it takes a long time to get there in many cases.
i like the point that an auditor should not suggest improvement especially our system is still in its early days of implementation..:agree1:
 

sagai

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
Hi,
the suggestions are subject to the audited decision whether or not catch her/his attention.
And yes, the result of the internal audit is the audit report. The content of the correction/corrective action/preventive action depends on the one's decision responsible to eliminate the non conformity.
br
Sz.
 

john.b

Involved In Discussions
#10
Interesting. You might want to keep in mind that getting people on board is a big part of your project. If it came down to it you could turn any issue into a power play and revert to your upper management support to get things moving on a minor point, but since it's a lot easier to implement systems that never do work in the end you'd be better off not, or at least not playing that card until you need to. If someone is claiming there should be more clear documentation and formal process as a guideline that person should be in the pro-implementation camp.

Even if you are doing an early gap analysis issuing NC's and moving on to documenting corrective actions (suggested by who is responsible for the work-scope and resolution, ideally) sounds right to me but you could put people off with the terminology or just make the process less pleasant than it needs to be. Technically you're not really non-conformant in relation to any designed system yet (there isn't one) and let's face it, standard requirements in general are kind of vague. In some clear cases not that vague; if there is no document control that's obvious enough.

One last point: as with all the general large-scale change guidance you'll be best off if you can show some positive direction early, the "quick-win" idea. If you've only raised awareness through training and initial audit review that's actually a start but you might look out for something productive that people could relate to early, not just problems and far-off KPI-based gains built on top of a marketing edge foundation.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
A Refusal to discuss ISO 9001 obligations... what to do? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
Q Refusal to Document Complaints Customer Complaints 39
R AS 9100D - Containment and Corrective action AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 3
P Customer Corrective Action Requests in OASIS? AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 4
C Corrective action for failure in documents control ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
G Assignable cause/corrective action list for SPC Software Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 3
S Can we provide training plan as corrective action for IATF 16949 Non conformity? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
P Corrective Action Response for Missed bumps on brake press Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
B Stakeholder Initiated Corrective and Preventive Action Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 5
B Corrective and Preventive Action (CAPA) A Key Process of the Quality Management System Dec 17... Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 0
I When exactly can a corrective action be closed? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 3
M Risk and Corrective actions - Currently no FMEA's - Car systems Risk Management Principles and Generic Guidelines 8
L What to do if a Corrective Action requires several extensions Nonconformance and Corrective Action 7
Q Best criteria to measure Corrective Action effectiveness - Poor Maintenance ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
Ashok sunder Is it possible to reduce Risk likelihood and impact Post control Ranking after corrective action taken for risk? FMEA and Control Plans 1
E CAR (Corrective Action Report) with questionable Root Cause ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
Q Do we have to document all corrections and corrective actions in ISO 9001 10.2.2 ? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 43
B How to reply NCR on ineffectiveness of corrective action during IATF external audit? This is repeated issue whereby some mistake was done. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
G Differences - Nonconformances vs CAPA, Corrections vs Corrective Actions ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 16
I AS9100D Non-conformance for 10.2.1 b 2 and 10.2.1. b 3 e and f - Corrective Action AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 10
F Vigilance Reporting - Requirements for manufacturer Field Corrective Actions (FCAs) Other Medical Device Regulations World-Wide 5
A Agenda for 8D audit on Supplier's side - Auditing Corrective Actions General Auditing Discussions 5
I Audit Nonconformances - Can reported corrective actions be incomplete? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
I Corrective Action Tracking for Product and Process in the same system? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
Ashok sunder Is it possible to reduce FMEA Occurrence and Detection Ranking after corrective action taken for customer complaints? FMEA and Control Plans 6
E ISO 9001:2105 - Are OFI or Corrective actions required? Preventive Action and Continuous Improvement 55
R CIP (Corrective Action) requirements - ISO 9001 clause 10.2 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
E CAR (Corrective Action Request) Due Dates ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
E Corrective Action or Customer Complaint ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
J If Corrective and Preventive Action were truly Effective IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Q Is a Corrective Action Expected if a Quality Objective is not in compliance? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 38
M Corrective Action Effectiveness Nonconformance and Corrective Action 5
P Documentation for correction, corrective action, mini CAPA Nonconformance and Corrective Action 9
P Interesting Discussion Addressing Human Factors in Corrective Action AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 23
S Formal written response to a corrective action? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 9
M Informal Corrective Actions - AS9100DCl. 10.2.1 A-H Nonconformance and Corrective Action 12
Q AS9100D Corrective Action Procedure needed Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 1
S Corrective Action from Internal Audits not performed ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 24
J We don't have enough Corrective action entries AS9100, IAQG 9100, Nadcap and related Aerospace Standards and Requirements 10
T Timely Closure and "Ongoing" Corrective Action Nonconformance and Corrective Action 15
P Examples of Nonconformance, Corrective Action Requests, and Root Cause Analysis Nonconformance and Corrective Action 2
S How to Politely Close out a Nuisance Customer Corrective Action? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 11
O Updating "opportunities" resulting from Corrective Actions Nonconformance and Corrective Action 2
R How many Corrective Action Request can be Issued by DCMA for a single issue? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 2
MarilynJ6354 Missing Corrective Actions - Workforce does not trigger corrective action requests General Auditing Discussions 6
J When to Initiate a CAR (Corrective Action Request) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
A Corrective Action Software Recommendations Nonconformance and Corrective Action 4
S SCAR (Supplier Corrective Action Request) Timeliness & Issuance Supplier Quality Assurance and other Supplier Issues 3
Fender1 Customer specified Item Defect Corrective Action Responsibility Customer Complaints 18
Q Timeframe to resolve Corrective Actions (Undue Delay) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
Similar threads


















































Top Bottom