Registrar's Auditors Main Interest - Football Hall of Fame - Little Work

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#41
the experience thing

It used to be important to have had experience so that you could make judgements based on relevance. Notice i said USED TO BE...

I now think the broader the experience the better...they have seen soup to nuts, and know how to tell if it works or not... A tight A**ed claud from the same industry could be much worse than someone with little to no industry experience

I vote for an interview....a bit of chemistry...can you spend a few stress fulled days with this person, and respect them in the end...talk a bit of philosophy....how do they tell you that you are dead wrong? can you take that type/brand of criticism? its like choosing a mate..........you will have to live with them a while....so its best to be on the same page

someone said they all use the same pool of talent....that is so true. The auditor and the receptionist make a registrar.....think about it.
 
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Sidney Vianna

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Staff member
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#42
This idea that all Registrars draws from the same pool is simply WRONG. Some registrars use a lot of free-lancing people to do their audits, which typically leads to dramatic inconsistency issues. Other Registrars use a very stable audit staff, with little turnover.

I find amusing that some organizations chosing a registrar, make a decision on price only, sometimes "saving" US$ 500.00 or less over the 3 year period. What they don't realize until is very late, is the fact that some Registrars do subcontract with cheap imbecile/morons that will do a very louzy job of assessing any quality management system. Sometimes it can be very embarrassing to let this people roam around your facility asking the most stupid questions.

Just because someone has a certificate as a lead auditor it does not make s/he a GOOD auditor, just like having a drivers license does not represent proof that you are a good driver.

The truth is that Registrars are service providers and the level, quality and caliber of services, provided by Registrars varies TREMENDOUSLY.
 
J

JodiB

#43
Ohhhh yeeeaaahhhh. I agree fully. Fulltime assessors, and good service with no hidden prices.

But it is true that the registrars pull from the same talent pool.

Sometimes using the same assessors even. There are registrars who will use subbies who also sub out to other registrars...! Kind of like using the local hired gun.

And assessors jump ship from time to time like we all do - seeking a better job, better pay, better conditions, etc. Sometimes the client base will switch registrars too to stay with the same assessor.

I know assessors we wouldn't hire, or who were 'let go' were often picked up by other registrars. So what does that say?

All registrars will review essentially the same applications. How the actual division of talent occurs is what separates one registrar from another.

And the brilliant smiling talented quick service from the office of course! (got to get my plug in !:vfunny: )
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#44
I don't see where you get off by saying Registrars don't get their folks from the same talent pool. The talent pool available is the sum total of all the people that are qualified, able and willing to perform the work. If it is a requirement by your organization that every auditor you use be certified as a Lead Auditor do you think there is an infinite number to choose from? Not hardly!!

Lets take into consideration EMS auditing (which I hold dear to my heart). If in order to perform EMS audits for your company If you require a person to be an EMS-LA (like me) there are only slightly over 200 people in the USA that meet that requirement (RAB certified anyway, I don't know about IRCA or other agencies). Now of that 200+ at least 25% are not available for hire for one reason or another. That leaves 150+. Where is the limitless talent pool here? Where are all these other people at that you seem to think exist?

What they don't realize until is very late, is the fact that some Registrars do subcontract with cheap imbecile/morons that will do a very louzy job of assessing any quality management system.
Thanks alot for the thought there Sid. I have an MBA, I belong to MENSA (which means I'm not a moron) I am credentialed by the Cal EPA as an environmental professional and I am a RAB certified EMS-LA. I didn't get that stuff by meeting the specifications of your quote. When I do an environmental audit I can guarantee that environmental management is happening because I am not some quality dude (no slur intended towards my friends here whom I truly respect) that took a little course, learned some buzz words, and glossied over some audit time while in the employ of a Registrar to get credentials.

Engage the grey matter there Sid, you are normally pretty sharp.
 
A

Aaron Lupo

#45
Originally posted by Sidney Vianna

I find amusing that some organizations chosing a registrar, make a decision on price only, sometimes "saving" US$ 500.00 or less over the 3 year period. What they don't realize until is very late, is the fact that some Registrars do subcontract with cheap imbecile/morons that will do a very louzy job of assessing any quality management system. Sometimes it can be very embarrassing to let this people roam around your facility asking the most stupid questions.
How about saving 14K a year or 42K over a three year period. I m happy with the as you say "Morons" our registrar sends and guess what they are subcontracted, where I have the problem is with the Morons in the Office of our Registrar that are unwilling to help when I have a question. 20K a year may not sound like a lot of money but when you have another registrar quite you 6K a year for the same service makes you wonder. An no the registrar that is quoting us 6K a year does not have hidden fees, they are not a small unknown registrar (not that there is anything wrong with small registrars), and the customer service is 100% better.

And Sidney maybe I am taking it the wrong way, but I am also a subcontracted auditor ( I also have a full time QA managers job), does that make me a moron??? (If so can I at least be a high grade moron and not a low grade moron :vfunny: )
 
J

JodiB

#46
Settle down boys.:D No one has made a personal comment about your skills or knowledge. Sidney simply pointed out that there are some registrars who use unqualified assessors who couldn't audit their way out of an unlabeled improperly stored leaky waste container. He didn't say that ALL subs are unqualified - I know lots of great subs who work fulltime for registrars (on exclusive contract) who just wanted the freedom to refuse work when they wanted to!

But as for the cheaper registrars: it is entirely possible that they use poor assessors to keep their costs low. As is much in life, the best tends to cost more. Heck, would you fellas work for minimum wage to do what you do? Or do you consider yourselves fairly professional and knowledgeable and you would not sell yourself so cheaply?

In my experience, the "best" always demanded more salary and perks than the "run of the mill", and the cheapest were the ones who couldn't get work any other way - or for some reason simply accepted less than they could have gotten.

When you get bids to put a roof on your house and there are three companies who charge about the same, and one that is just so low you've got to be suspicious.....what goes through your mind???
 
J

JodiB

#47
And ISO Guy, there is no excuse for getting poor service out of the office staff . Unfortunately, that is where registrars cut their corners. The assessors are considered to be the resource that is most important and the salaries go there.

Once again. You get what you pay for. If even the "big name" registrars can't even pay a decent salary to attract competent office staff, then how is a little cheaper one supposed to do it?
 

Sidney Vianna

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#48
Thank you, Lucinda

How could I pass judgement on anybody's competence if I have never seen them in action?:confused:

Like you stated. I never said that all subcontracted auditors are IQ-challenged. Actually, as a point of clarification, the Registrar that I work for also subcontracts auditors. I just think that some of us do a better job of screening auditors than others.

Some Registrars will use anybody that has the credentials to populate their audits. And when auditor supply exceeds demands, the Registrars (that are not concerned with high standards) shop for the cheapest willing auditor to represent them. I know that some registrars out there don't even pay for the travel expenses of their auditors.

The sad part is that many companies have NEVER experienced a competent, knowledgeable, value-added-mentality auditor. They settle for the morons because they are a known quantity. Typically these companies belittle ISO 9000 because they associate audits with a waste of time and effort. Other organizations that have experienced high level auditing, normally develop, over time a very healthy relationship with the registrar and their auditors. Unfortunately, the latter is a small minority.

Just to show how useless, ignorant and gutless some auditors are, I mention an experience that I had sometime ago, during an ISO Users Group panel discussion. This individual, who represented a well known Registrar in the US had the audacity of stating that his Registrar's policy was NOT to write non-conformances, in order to keep the customers happy. After all, he proceeded, we are suppliers to the organizations we certify and we must strive to keep our clients happy . . . frust: mad: eek:

This Industry needs some serious sweeping and cleaning. We are getting to a point where not only fraudulent practices are placing the whole concept of third-party certification at risk. Incompetence and ignorance are adding to the problem, too.

There are many drivers forcing the cost down in the Registration Business. Cheap, ignorant, incompetent auditors is the way that SOME registrars are addressing competitiveness. But it makes you wonder how long this process will exist if the VAST majority of audits are done with no real value? How much longer will the ISO 9000 Certification process exist? Is this a sustainable process? Long debate ensues . . . .::::
 

barb butrym

Quite Involved in Discussions
#49
wow...that was a heated discussion!!! my first gut reaction was to join in...but I thought better of it...I am biased. Sidney, you seem so angry toward the sub auditor population...you must have seen some beauts......so the good thing is you don't have to call them again...when you have a moron in house....you need to really deal with it.

the morons we all meet come from all walks of audit....my most obnoxious and ill informed were full time auditors...which I must say are paid considerably less than contract ones and stressed to the max.......except for US owned registrars who sometimes pay benefits....foreign owned don't pay health insurance etc...living out of a suitcase 2 weeks at a time for that pay is crazy. Subs are less stressed typically doing fill in stuff.

All our experiences are the same but different....as with selecting an HMO or Doctor.....or even a resturant or automobile...we each have different criteria and assessment methods...i say tOmato you say tomAto...and so on

As to the common pool.....I still believe it is common.....maybe not the same select 100 people type of pool...but common.....most were downsized QA guys from maga defense firms....who took the QSLA...many know one another, and many do sub for more than 1 registrar...not to mention the buy outs that have been plagueing the industry...registras swallowed up whole, then the principals starting again. I know one company that has had 3 new certs in 2 years......due to registra name changes/sales.
 
A

Aaron Lupo

#50
Originally posted by Lucinda
And ISO Guy, there is no excuse for getting poor service out of the office staff . Unfortunately, that is where registrars cut their corners. The assessors are considered to be the resource that is most important and the salaries go there.

Once again. You get what you pay for. If even the "big name" registrars can't even pay a decent salary to attract competent office staff, then how is a little cheaper one supposed to do it?
Smaller Registrars IMHO are much better at providing customer service to thier clients. Why because they actually care, they don't have so many clients that they can't handle them or not care if they lose a small company like the one I work for. When I tell our registrar that we are leaving because of thier customer service do you think they will care, probablly not becuase we are just a blip on their screen. The registrar that we are going to switch to is not small I would say they are probablly one of the larger US registrars, they charge 1/3 of what we are getting nalied for now. We are currently getting charged $2300 for a certificate now come on what the hell is that all about, they nickle and dime us 1500 for this report , 600 for reviewing previous findings give me a break. As I mentioned before I sub-contract with a registrar I see what they charge and what we are being charged it is a joke. Why are we being charged this much because they can they have a big name. If anyone would like to know who they are e-mail me and I will let you know, I don't want to put their name here. So yes smaller registrars can have competent auditors (their top auditor has over 30 years in Quality), provide excellent customer service and for a fraction of the cost of what the larger registrars are charging.
 
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