Re: Regulatory Compliance Issues - Complaints from neighbours
Let me echo Randy's last point. Thanks, Sidney.
Ok, please be patient with me. But this thread has been bugging me for a few days, now. Don't really care who's right or wrong; but I am concerned with understanding.
The glasses one wears always colors everything they see. I interpret that most of the posters here are full time, professional auditors. Thus, you see this from the OP perspective. The objectivity and impartiality is commendable, too. I agree with you. As long as the company is following their stated goals and objectives, they have satisfied the requirements. I also agree that the certification body should accept their auditors recommendations.
But then I put on my reality glasses, and see things how they are (no matter how ugly they may be). Maybe a Shallow Hal in reverse. I am a hands-off, laissez-faire kind of guy, and am under the impression that the regulatory agency has probably overstepped their case (as most often they do), or are internally at-odds. As Sidney stated, the organization probably was encroached.
But to the original post, the OP asked what he/she should do about this. My suggestion is that there is nothing to do. If the Certification Body does not want to certify this organization, that is their right. I'm not saying I agree, just that is their right.
The organization has some decision-making to do. Maybe it's time to talk to the local elected officials and see what's up. In the classic song: Should I stay or should I go? These same community people griping are the ones who benefit from the jobs and commerce brought by the business. Some tough decisions need to be made, by the organization and the citizens.
My ideal response and the realistic response by me, unfortunately, have to be at odds on this one.
Am I missing something, or do we fundamentally agree?
Let me echo Randy's last point. Thanks, Sidney.
Ok, please be patient with me. But this thread has been bugging me for a few days, now. Don't really care who's right or wrong; but I am concerned with understanding.
The glasses one wears always colors everything they see. I interpret that most of the posters here are full time, professional auditors. Thus, you see this from the OP perspective. The objectivity and impartiality is commendable, too. I agree with you. As long as the company is following their stated goals and objectives, they have satisfied the requirements. I also agree that the certification body should accept their auditors recommendations.
But then I put on my reality glasses, and see things how they are (no matter how ugly they may be). Maybe a Shallow Hal in reverse. I am a hands-off, laissez-faire kind of guy, and am under the impression that the regulatory agency has probably overstepped their case (as most often they do), or are internally at-odds. As Sidney stated, the organization probably was encroached.
But to the original post, the OP asked what he/she should do about this. My suggestion is that there is nothing to do. If the Certification Body does not want to certify this organization, that is their right. I'm not saying I agree, just that is their right.
The organization has some decision-making to do. Maybe it's time to talk to the local elected officials and see what's up. In the classic song: Should I stay or should I go? These same community people griping are the ones who benefit from the jobs and commerce brought by the business. Some tough decisions need to be made, by the organization and the citizens.
My ideal response and the realistic response by me, unfortunately, have to be at odds on this one.
Am I missing something, or do we fundamentally agree?
Randy
Super Moderator
Re: Regulatory Compliance Issues - Complaints from neighbours
This thing has kinda gotten off center probably. I think the focus became "Oh, my goodness, they're in violation of the law, they have citizen complaints, and the regulatory agency does not agree with their corrective actions. Let's slam em and jam em and make 'em scream, those horrible violators".
Not knowing what the violation is we could be looking at something as simple as control of parking lot run off, paticulate matter exceedance from woodworking operations or peceptions of exceedance due to an odor like styrene or ammonia. I have been in this situation myself...PERSONALLY, and the regulator would not listen, and the complainers kept running in circles bemoaning their sorry fate in life! It took a couple of years before everyone was happy and you know what? Nothing actually changed other than some fine print on some paperwork.
At least until Chicken Little showed up again.
This thing has kinda gotten off center probably. I think the focus became "Oh, my goodness, they're in violation of the law, they have citizen complaints, and the regulatory agency does not agree with their corrective actions. Let's slam em and jam em and make 'em scream, those horrible violators".
Not knowing what the violation is we could be looking at something as simple as control of parking lot run off, paticulate matter exceedance from woodworking operations or peceptions of exceedance due to an odor like styrene or ammonia. I have been in this situation myself...PERSONALLY, and the regulator would not listen, and the complainers kept running in circles bemoaning their sorry fate in life! It took a couple of years before everyone was happy and you know what? Nothing actually changed other than some fine print on some paperwork.
At least until Chicken Little showed up again.
Re: Regulatory Compliance Issues - Complaints from neighbours
As always, I am sure that there is much more to this story than we will ever find out.
For the CB to deny continued certification to this organization, they have to justify it. Soundly. Otherwise, the organization could file a complaint with the Accreditation Body and even pursue a legal case against the CB. CB's can not deny certification if they can not demonstrate glaring breaches of the certified system against applicable requirements.
As always, I am sure that there is much more to this story than we will ever find out.
Randy
Super Moderator
Sidney is correct Brad, I've just been more longwinded about it.
We have to go beyond the violation itself and look at the total system response to the problem. If every cert for evey client was jerked, regardless of who the CB is, there would be far, far fewer organizations with "wall adornment" that presently exist.
Compliance is important, but not any more important than achieving O&T's, reducing negative impact, improving positive impact, and all that other neat stuff when we talk systems. It's just one of the pieces.
We have to go beyond the violation itself and look at the total system response to the problem. If every cert for evey client was jerked, regardless of who the CB is, there would be far, far fewer organizations with "wall adornment" that presently exist.
Compliance is important, but not any more important than achieving O&T's, reducing negative impact, improving positive impact, and all that other neat stuff when we talk systems. It's just one of the pieces.
Randy, Sidney... Thank you. Seeing a little more of the inside regarding the operation of the certification body helps.
So... I am to infer that certification bodies have a compelling (legal and other) interest to follow the recommendations of their auditors. Correct?
As Sidney alluded to, there is probably a lot more going on here than we might infer from the post. Given the information so far, are the actions of this certification body a common thing, or a rarity? Should the auditor(s) (OP) do anything, or should the forceful action come from the organization? What would you recommend is the organization's first step?
I am assuming that since the organization is the customer, the auditor submitted a copy of the audit report to the organization. So they know (and have documented evidence) the auditors recommended continued certification.
So... I am to infer that certification bodies have a compelling (legal and other) interest to follow the recommendations of their auditors. Correct?
As Sidney alluded to, there is probably a lot more going on here than we might infer from the post. Given the information so far, are the actions of this certification body a common thing, or a rarity? Should the auditor(s) (OP) do anything, or should the forceful action come from the organization? What would you recommend is the organization's first step?
I am assuming that since the organization is the customer, the auditor submitted a copy of the audit report to the organization. So they know (and have documented evidence) the auditors recommended continued certification.
Paul Simpson
Trusted Information Resource
I said I wouldn't post further here but as the thread seems to be going into other areas ....
As you have seen in earlier posts there is some disagreement.
Now BradM, just because a couple of the "big dogs" are on the thread and happen to agree on this doesn't mean you have to bow to their vast experience.
As you have seen in earlier posts there is some disagreement.
Absolutely not! Any certification body has a head office review of the report. Only when this review is carried out is the recommendation confirmed. All 3rd party auditors should state this in the closing meeting. I usually start with "I've never had a recommendation overturned yet but ...."
Correct. This is all guesswork. My posts are based on a significant breach indicating the system is failing. I accept all of the points that regulations can be a pain in the proverbial but again, in the case of my CB, we would not offer an extension of scope if there are outstanding issues. If it is as simple as a documentary breach then we might reconsider.
Typically yes - hence the importance of the auditor saying this is only a recommendation. You know it is going to create a stink if the CB overturns the recommendation but that goes with the territory!
Paul,
Thank you very much for your insight on this.
I do greatly appreciate when any of the posters take the time to explain their rationale.
I still hold to my belief in the rights of the Certification Body, and of the organization. However, I do like to find out all the options available. This way, I have a much richer view of things.
Sometimes things in life are not clear-cut, and fit neatly into a box. If this is a realistic scenario presented to us, it will not be fixed overnight, and I am not sure if there will be any winners.
Thank you very much for your insight on this.
I do greatly appreciate when any of the posters take the time to explain their rationale.
I still hold to my belief in the rights of the Certification Body, and of the organization. However, I do like to find out all the options available. This way, I have a much richer view of things.
Sometimes things in life are not clear-cut, and fit neatly into a box. If this is a realistic scenario presented to us, it will not be fixed overnight, and I am not sure if there will be any winners.