Relationship between ISO9001 and Lean

[tongxiaozhi]

Our company is a 9K registered company and is in the process of implementing lean. My understanding is that the goal of 9K is aligned with that of lean in terms of continuous improvement. But I also think that, in some aspects, they are in conflict with each other. Many records required by 9K are waste from the lean perspective because they are non-value added. Also, quality audit is also waste from the lean view. Am I correct in my understanding?

Thanks in advance.

 

[somashekar]

You are not correct in the understanding.
It is you who decides which of the several records you want to keep under control of records. ISO standard identifies the processes which needs records to establish the effective process performance. Internal audit is once such process which needs records. If you dump all your records into control, obviously you are not adding value.
Lean can be one of your quality objectives in your QMS.

 

[harry]

1. One is a management system that focus on the quality aspects and promotes continuous improvement whereas the other is a set of tools for improvement.

2. If at anytime you feel that your system is bulky and you are doing a lot of unnecessary work or keeping unnecessary records, it is a sign that weakness exist - often traceable to your continuous improvement efforts and in particular the internal audit area. Blame it on the competency of people involved and not the 14 page of guidelines which everybody uses.

 

[tongxiaozhi]

I agree with you that most of the waste in 9K is due to incompetence of internal auditors, who don't really understand 9K and impose their ideas on the system, thus, unnecessary and useless documents and records are created. People feel that 9K is nothing but a tool that causes troubles and bring extra work.I think the root cause of this problem is that management doesn't understand and doesn't care the 9K system.

 

[AndyN]

I agree with you that most of the waste in 9K is due to incompetence of internal auditors, who don't really understand 9K and impose their ideas on the system, thus, unnecessary and useless documents and records are created. People feel that 9K is nothing but a tool that causes troubles and bring extra work.I think the root cause of this problem is that management doesn't understand and doesn't care the 9K system.

Be careful! It's not the incompetence of the auditors - it's the lack of understanding by management of the use of the audit programme! Anyone who tells us that the people think ISO is those things has fundamental problems at a top management level, as you say. "People" don't even need to know about "ISO"...

 

[tongxiaozhi]

Be careful! It's not the incompetence of the auditors - it's the lack of understanding by management of the use of the audit programme! Anyone who tells us that the people think ISO is those things has fundamental problems at a top management level, as you say. "People" don't even need to know about "ISO"...

Thank you for your insightful comment. Very helpful. I think most top management are from production, technology, engineering or sales. So, I don't think they really care about the system. At least from my experience.

 

[AndyN]

Thank you for your insightful comment. Very helpful. I think most top management are from production, technology, engineering or sales. So, I don't think they really care about the system. At least from my experience.

Well they won't care, if no-one's explained it in terms they understand. Many people talk ISO gibberish - that's how it's perceived. Top management need to have it translated for them...

 

[Haydinho]

tongxiaozhi,

You have to go a step back and understand value... Remember value is defined by the customer.

All activities can be split into the following:

Value adding = Anything the customer is willing to pay for
Non-Value adding = Anything the customer isn't willing to pay for
Necessary non-value adding = Anything the customer isn't willing to pay for, but is required for the organization to function/improve...

Non-value adding is a tricky one to get your head around.
Tasks like accounting, administrative activities and record keeping can all fall under this category.. the key is to minimize the waste in these activities so they don't become a burden to the organization.

Quality audit is a measure - You are review the effectiveness of the quality system and identifying waste/areas for improvement.

9K Records - You define the rules here, the key is to simplify things and minimize the waste. Only produce what is necessary/what is going to add value to the organization.

 

[John Broomfield]

Our company is a 9K registered company and is in the process of implementing lean. My understanding is that the goal of 9K is aligned with that of lean in terms of continuous improvement. But I also think that, in some aspects, they are in conflict with each other. Many records required by 9K are waste from the lean perspective because they are non-value added. Also, quality audit is also waste from the lean view. Am I correct in my understanding?

Thanks in advance.

tongxiaozhi,

Our work falls into three categories:

• Adds value for customers
• Enables work to add value for customers
• Waste

Keeping records to conform to a standard is waste. Keeping and using records to add value for customers or enable value adding work is not.

This tells us that we should have an objective or purpose for every type of record. This may cause us to think and adjust the way we keep and use our records.

John

 

[Bev D]

you might want to read "Lean ISO 9001: Adding Spark to your ISO 9001 QMS and Sustainability to your Lean Efforts" by Mike Micklewright

(I am not affiliated with Mike in any way, but I have found his book insightful in beginning the transformation of our QMS)