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Relying on Supplier Records for Material Traceability - Bar stock and forgings

D

dtr18c

#1
Hi,

I work for a company that does cnc machining on bar stock and forgings.
We are working towards ISO 9001:2008 registration and while discussing Identification and traceability management wants to rely on our suppliers to retrieve material certifications from. They think we should be able to contact our supplier with the PO# tied to the job number in our software and meet traceability requirements. (They don't want to have our own storage/retrieval system if possible) I think that our customer requirements should be considered and this is an excerpt from one of our customer's audit:
Is required product identification (including material certification and heat number, if applicable) maintained through all stages of production, assembly, and delivery?

Any thoughts about this?

Thanks.
 
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SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

The standard says:
Where appropriate, the organization shall identify the product by suitable means....
Where traceability is a requirment, the organization shall control the unique....

So, first you need to identify the requirements of your industry and your customers so that you can make an informed decision on how to handle traceability at your facility.
 
#3
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

I really don't see how you can get out of keeping at least some traceability records. How can you expect a supplier to trace things once it hits your inventory? How will they know which work orders the material applies to? How will they know which customers the material will end up with?

You should be able to depend on your suppliers to maintain records to support their C of C and C of A, but that is about it.
 

Ted Schmitt

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

Welcome to the Cove !!!!


After you have done what Steel said :

The standard says:
Where appropriate, the organization shall identify the product by suitable means....
Where traceability is a requirment, the organization shall control the unique....

So, first you need to identify the requirements of your industry and your customers so that you can make an informed decision on how to handle traceability at your facility.
I would not rely soley on my supplier to maintain all traceability records... I find it way to risky.... what if he messes it all up? what if he goes broke ?
 
D

dtr18c

#5
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

Jim-
Just to clarify were not looking for our suppliers to be able to trace material (throughtout our shop/after it leaves our shop) after delivery that would be impossible. Our software provides event based records for that aspect as well as what work order and customer the material belongs to.

SteelMaiden-
Material certification and heat# need to be maintained throughout all stages of production.

What I am asking is if it would be considered acceptable per ISO 9001:2008 requirements for us to say that material certification etc are maintained by our suppliers and are retrievable by us by referencing the PO# (which is linked work order in our software)?

I believe my question concerns 4.2.4 Control of records:
We need to keep records to provide evidence of conformity to requirements (material requirements in this case). We get to establish the controls needed for storage/retention/retrieval/etc. With that said if we were to determine that our suppliers system is sutible for this would that be acceptable?

Ted-
I agree; during my discussion with management I brought up the failure modes of relying on our suppliers for these records like system failure/errors/etc. The response I got was "What if armageddon strikes?"

I personally think that we should maintain these records but am having a hard time selling this to management. Any advice?

Thanks for your help.
 
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Ted Schmitt

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

What volume are we talking about here ?
How may bars / lots with the same traceabilities are you receiving per month ?

We also machine bar stock (brass, stainless etc)... we identify them with our traceability # (stamped at the end) and paint the end with corresponding color to identify the type of bar (304, 316, 410, 420 etc).

Then I have simple spreadsheet containing :

receiving date
Supplier invoice # and date
Supplier heat #
Supplier test cert #

The test cert I scan and maintain it as a PDF in the suppliers folder on the network.

I don´t see a "major cost" with this... and the benefits are greater..even if Armaggedon´s strikes...
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#7
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

What I am asking is if it would be considered acceptable per ISO 9001:2008 requirements for us to say that material certification etc are maintained by our suppliers and are retrievable by us by referencing the PO# (which is linked work order in our software)?
:lmao:Having worked on the end of the spectrum where people think that since they got the certification from us to start with, so therefore, they can just call up at will and get another cert whenever you want....
Yes, you could do that, but I will be the first to say that the more often you call to get another copy of the cert, the less goodwill you will get from an already busy cert clerk.

Your requests will potentially be put in the c-list in the Franklin Planner, and your company will become the joke of the test report area. Readily available? What happens 1500 certifications later when the mill test clerk says "eh, he can wait, he does this on every order, so he can just cool his heels until tomorrow" when you have an auditor in your face today, or worse, your customer?:mg:
 
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D

dtr18c

#8
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

How may bars / lots with the same traceabilities are you receiving per month ?
Maximum of 20 lots/500 bars per month.

Another question regarding product identification:
We use a bar coding system to track production. The operator enters the quantity good and quantity bad. I've seen a previous thread, elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=36302, where it mentions using a bar coding system to identify status of product.

What are your thoughts about using this type of system to identify product status?

If we do use this to identify product status then will all operators need access to the software or can they request status from a manager with access?

I know it wouldn't be too hard to add a simple "approved" or "rejected" stamp (or something similar) to identification tags but I just wanted to get your thoughts about using the bar coding method to identify status.

Thanks.
 
D

dtr18c

#9
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

We also machine bar stock (brass, stainless etc)... we identify them with our traceability # (stamped at the end) and paint the end with corresponding color to identify the type of bar (304, 316, 410, 420 etc).

Then I have simple spreadsheet containing :

receiving date
Supplier invoice # and date
Supplier heat #
Supplier test cert #
One of our customers requires us to match parts to a time frame and lot of material. We have some parts where our customer provides the material (forgings) in bulk. We write the material lot# on our identification tags and these tags stay with material/parts through production and delivery.

Will the tags that ship with the material be sufficient?
(The bad thing about this is if the tag becomes missing or destroyed after shipping then the material traceability is broken)

Or should we be maintaining additional records associating material to job#'s?

Anybody care to share their practices for traceability?
 
J

John Martinez

#10
Re: Relying on supplier records for material traceability

Welcome to the Cove !!!!


After you have done what Steel said :



I would not rely soley on my supplier to maintain all traceability records... I find it way to risky.... what if he messes it all up? what if he goes broke ?
If you are relying on your supplier in and of themselves, if they go out of business, you are .... (fill in the blank) with your customer.

As a third party or second party auditor, I would not accept this.
 
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