Remote Location - Design Responsibility - TS 16949 Certification - Join the debate

P

pinpin - 2009

#11
Re: Remote Location - Design Responsibility - TS 16949 Certification - Join the debat

Dear R. Senthilkumar:

The singapore company holds shares in the Malaysia company.

But in terms of business, they are different business entity.

I am confused with the clarification in number 6 and 7 of the "Rules for Achieving IATF Recognition 2nd Edition FAQ's" on whether to treat them as Customer Supplier Relationship or Remote Supporting Function.

Thank you very much!
 
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P

potdar

#12
Re: Remote Location - Design Responsibility - TS 16949 Certification - Join the debat

Is the manufacturing Site, that applies for Certification, considered product design / development responsible? That is, will it be audited with the scope that includes Product design and development? (I would say, Yes)
It will depend on the scope of business understanding (contracts) the organisation has with its customers. If they offer a standard catalogue to their customers and the customers say 'give me shade XYZ', how and where the company acquired the recipe for the product does not matter. The scope of certification would also say "manufacture of paints..."

If the customer says 'get a shade of such and such specification developed for me' and the organisation agrees, they can still purchase a recipe from an outside party and get it approved by the customer. (R&D Japan can be that outside party). Again, the scope can be "manufacture of paints..."

Inhouse tweaking of the recipe is a grey area and would need to be further discussed. In my opinion, if this is done to produce modified version of a product (a new product), then the organisation is design responsible. Here too it will be inhouse tweaking activity that will face scrutiny.
 
P

pinpin - 2009

#13
Re: Remote Location - Design Responsibility - TS 16949 Certification - Join the debat

To all the experts contributing your views here, I would like to say thank you so much and seek your comment on my views:

Why can't we treat the external design plant (which is different company name from the manufacturing plant even though they may have the first name the same example: ZZZ Design Limited or ZZZ Manufacturing Limited; even they are related, they are separate legal business entity) as a subcon instead of remote supporting function/site? Because no matter whether the design plant is a subcon or a remote supporting function/site, the manufacturing plant must also be responsible for the product it supplies to its customer.

The requirement to treat the external design plant as remote supporting function would result in delays in having more numbers of companies certifying to TS, since the cost and time required to audit the external plants (no matter whether it is Product design or Mould design for making that Product) could be a headache to some companies!! Some companies may even drop the idea of being certified to TS, ultimately how can we expect increasing number of TS certified companies and how can TS help to improve the industry in a gradual and steady pace?

Clause 7.4.1.2 requires development of supplier quality management system with the goal of conformity with TS, and conformity with 9001:2000 is the first step in achieving such goal. This requirement already helps to control the external plant, and can also help to solve the cost and time problem stated above.

As long as the manufacturing plant could demonstrate that they manage, monitor and control the external plant properly and in compliance with 7.4; they still could provide good product meeting customer's requirement.

Also, I find that the only difference is certification scope:

1) If the externa design plant is treated as remote supporting function/site, then the manufacturing plant's TS cert should be "Desing and Manufacture of...."; and

2) If the externa design plant is treated as a subcon, then the manufacturing plant's TS cert should be without design but only "Manufacture of....". But still responsible for design of the product.
I appologize if my views are not correct or proper, a million aplogies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#14
Re: Remote Location - Design Responsibility - TS 16949 Certification - Join the debat

To all the experts contributing your views here, I would like to say thank you so much and seek your comment on my views:

Why can't we treat the external design plant (which is different company name from the manufacturing plant even though they may have the first name the same example: ZZZ Design Limited or ZZZ Manufacturing Limited; even they are related, they are separate legal business entity) as a subcon instead of remote supporting function/site? Because no matter whether the design plant is a subcon or a remote supporting function/site, the manufacturing plant must also be responsible for the product it supplies to its customer.

The requirement to treat the external design plant as remote supporting function would result in delays in having more numbers of companies certifying to TS, since the cost and time required to audit the external plants (no matter whether it is Product design or Mould design for making that Product) could be a headache to some companies!! Some companies may even drop the idea of being certified to TS, ultimately how can we expect increasing number of TS certified companies and how can TS help to improve the industry in a gradual and steady pace?

Clause 7.4.1.2 requires development of supplier quality management system with the goal of conformity with TS, and conformity with 9001:2000 is the first step in achieving such goal. This requirement already helps to control the external plant, and can also help to solve the cost and time problem stated above.

As long as the manufacturing plant could demonstrate that they manage, monitor and control the external plant properly and in compliance with 7.4; they still could provide good product meeting customer's requirement.

Also, I find that the only difference is certification scope:

1) If the externa design plant is treated as remote supporting function/site, then the manufacturing plant's TS cert should be "Desing and Manufacture of...."; and

2) If the externa design plant is treated as a subcon, then the manufacturing plant's TS cert should be without design but only "Manufacture of....". But still responsible for design of the product.
I appologize if my views are not correct or proper, a million aplogies!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


1. You raise interesting arguments, but the CBs do not have a say in the matter. The Rules are determined by IATF, and that is their scheme.

2. Their logic behind placing this much attention on Product Design is worthwhile. They want it audited every year because there are frequent problems. If you are Design Responsible, they want the activity to be robust and well controlled, at least as well as the rest of your system.

Whether it is in your building, or at a sister company location, or even contracted out, you must control the output to ensure it is robust and effective. The less stringent requirements to "develop subcontractors" give far too much room to duck your responsibilities.

Besides, design management has been a requirement since 1994, in QS, and even earlier in individual programs. This should not be new stuff, or a burden, 14 years later.

I may not completely agree with these ideas, but that is where they are coming from.
 
P

pinpin - 2009

#15
Re: Remote Location - Design Responsibility - TS 16949 Certification - Join the debat

Thank you very much for your quick comment!
:thanx:
 
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