Reporting As Found data - Actual before values or test points necessary?

#1
Hi everyone,
I'm currently in a battle with our Ireland counterparts on the reporting of as found data. The conversation center around a company, Coherent, who manufactures Radiometers that we use in our process.

Their paperwork consists of 2 sheets: the actual calibration certificate, and a service report that has the received information if the unit was found out of tolerance during the check. They simply report the error on this sheet:

Out of published specifications by +.5% at 10600nm

Our Ireland counterparts insist on having actual before values or test points used in the calibration. We have not required this because it costs an extra $125 per unit, and it will only show 3 points used for the calibration. If the sensor is a 0-3 watt, then the calibration points would be 1, 2, and 3 watts.

I have always accepted the simple statement above (out of published specifications), because the error can be determined: .5% of 3w = 0.015w.

Thoughts?
Charlie
 
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Jerry Eldred

Forum Moderator
Super Moderator
#2
Re: Reporting As Found data

There are many schools of thought about this (and I have been exposed - I think - to most of them). First, I should mention that although I have worked in many labs, my present lab requires ALL data.

Here are my views on some of the schools of thought:

OOT DATA ONLY SCHOOL: I have always said that in most cases (my opinion, based on many years of user interface) that when you give a user full data, there is often the implicit (yet incorrect) inference that the instrument is calibrated to the data not specs (remember - incorrect). Some users perceive you are certifying their accuracy to the data points. For example, at 1 volt, the meter reads 1.002 versus a spec of +/-0.01. That 1.002 is only what it read on that standard at that time of calibration. They forget about meter drift and instability as well as uncertainty of the standard, and presume the "1.002" is exact. Then (and I have seen this many times) they compare readings between to of the same model meters, and think you've done something wrong if they don't exactly match. For this reason, in many cases, I have reservations about full before/after data.

MEASUREMENT STANDARDS DATA SCHOOL: I do, however, believe there is great value to full data on measurement standards, as it is a useful tool in evaluating instrument drift, uncertainties, out-of-tolerances, etc. For the sake of time, I won't fully go into that one.

FULL BEFORE/AFTER DATA SCHOOL: Some applications necessitate full data on everything. There is the interval adjustment method that evaluates measurand drift to plot statistically the predicted interval. In product liability or government/ISO compliance circumstances, it can be useful to have full data to evaluate product test defects. There are ISO standards and other standards that implicitly or explicitly require data.

In your specific circumstance, my only thought would be, what do they want to do with the data? Is there a product test, process control, or quality assurance implication which needs to actually use the data points? The quality assurance implication could include an ISO or government regulatory implication.

Don't know how helpful the above has been. But hopefully I added some value.
 
Last edited:

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: Reporting As Found data

Great post by Jerry.

For my own tirade.... (This is just my opinion only)

I am a great skeptic of calibration certificates that don't have any data on it. Sometimes, with no signature. I like to see calibration documentation showing this is what I found, here's what I did, and here's how it is returned to you. Maybe.... that gives me more confidence that a human being actually touched the instrument. I know, the competent lab thing. But still, that's just how I am. To me, a competent lab should have the evidence of what they found when they checked an instrument. Why should I have to pay for that data??:soap:

OK, back to reality. In general, I prefer to have data attached. First, I am always inquisitive as to the method certain instruments were verified. Next, as Jerry suggested, it gives me better information for determining if I have drift, to what magnitude, etc. Even if it is within tolerance, I would still like to know if the instrument was adjusted and at what point.

Sometimes when there is a problem, or I am dealing with highly technical individuals, they want to see the calibration certificate with the information on it. Showing them a sheet with no data does not go well sometimes, and they critique the calibration. Not that their critique is justified; I just don't want to have to deal with it!

As far as your calculation of OOT data (if you don't have the data), how do you know if it was just out 5%? Maybe it was out 12% I would think you would be interested in magnitude.
 
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