Reproducing parts of a standard in a Procedure - copyright infringement?

S

Sorin

#1
So....AMS standards have the following disclaimer:
"No parts of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronical, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of SAE."

I saw procedures with tables scanned from standards and procedures with tables containing data from standards (and the standard being stated above the table).

1. Is that copyright infringement?
2.Can an auditor frown upon?

Thank you in advance....
 
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BradM

Staff member
Admin
#2
Sorin, check out this thread, where we discussed a similar notion:

http://elsmar.com/Forums/showthread.php?t=29441

When you say "procedures with tables scanned", are you speaking of your own procedures?

I'm not sure about an auditor frowning. As long as the steps are supposed to be covered, and indeed are being covered.

The copyright police may be another matter. If you are concerned about that, I might not copy it outright. What I would do (silly, I know) is create a checklist stating "complete item 1 from AMS2440 (made it up) Table 4" and so on. Then, you're not copying, you still refer to the most current version table, and still complete the same required steps.
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#3
So....AMS standards have the following disclaimer:
"No parts of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronical, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of SAE."

I saw procedures with tables scanned from standards and procedures with tables containing data from standards (and the standard being stated above the table).

1. Is that copyright infringement?
2.Can an auditor frown upon?

Thank you in advance....
This is a good question and the answer is not straight but YES and NO but more towards NO :)

Answer 1 - I would argue that if the personnel need to use the tables, it has to be in a SOP / WI or how would those personnel know what has to be practised ?

Answer 2 - If your site has a copyright document, the auditor can be explained that the tables are taken from the standard for use within the organization. Btw, I do not think any auditor would object this.
 
C

chaosweary

#4
I think all of this copyright infringement is a bunch of dung. I don't know of one auditor that never had a checklist with passages taken verbatim from some standard. Also the statue of limitations a lawsuit from the author for a copyrighted material is 3 yrs from when the infringment occurs in the U.S. - (I have had my checklists for over 10 yrs). Calling something an International standard then having it copyrighted is a paradox. Does anyone have examples of ISO-IEC successfully litigating a copyright? I think if they really want to make money on their standards then make them cheaper. If they were say 5 or 10 even 20 bucks we would buy a whole lot more of them. Wait if your in China then Copyright infringement doesn't apply!!!:lol:
 

Bob the QE

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
:mg: Recently, we had a consultant come in to do internal auditor training to AS9100. I must add that this individual was part of the transition team I inherited when I took this project on, we had already contractually agreed to his services. Anyway, as he is preparing to conduct the internal audit for my team I notice the standard he is using is AS9100A and in the front it has the standard "Rights reserved.....,without written permission of XXX". So I ask him not only does he have the right to copy this and use it, why aren't my auditors being trained to rev. B". Long story short he didn't have the right nor did he have Rev B. We kept our financial end of the agreement but used him only as trainer to ISO. My stance on this is that the authors of these documents do have rights and should be compensated WHEN their material is being used for direct financial gain of others and when they are so identified. OK off my soap box.
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
So....AMS standards have the following disclaimer:
"No parts of this publication may be reproduced, stored in a retrieval system or transmitted, in any form or by any means, electronical, mechanical, photocopying, recording, or otherwise, without the prior written permission of SAE."

I saw procedures with tables scanned from standards and procedures with tables containing data from standards (and the standard being stated above the table).

1. Is that copyright infringement?
2.Can an auditor frown upon?

Thank you in advance....
Hi Sorin,
While many of the contributors to this thread are well-intentioned, beware...most of their comments are opinions rather than fact.

The safest approach is to write to the copyright owner, describe the proposed use, and ask them if it is permitted, and if there is any associated charge.

I had a similar question relating to the use of ISO 9001, so I wrote to the ISO secretariat. I wanted to know if it was acceptable to use Sections 4 through 8 as illustrated in the attached ISO and Business Operating System Interface Matrix (sample attached).

I was asked to complete a proposed usage form (also attached below), and return it to the Standards Council of Canada, which oversees international copyright issues arising in Canada (which is where I am).

Here is the response which I received:

As I mentioned, the total content of the standard included in your Matrix
must not represent more than 25% of the Matrix. This is ISO policy which
SCC, as the Canadian ISO member, is obligated to implement.

If you meet this requirement by adding sufficient material to your
Matrix and you choose to pursue using the complete text of the standard
from section 4 through 8, then there would be a fee for its use. There
would be a charge of $36.00 for each use of the Matrix containing the
standard. Payments can be made on a quarterly basis and this would be
reflected in the agreement.​
So you see, I would require their permission and have to pay a fee if I actually used the whole standard as proposed.

Of course, one way to get around it is to use the same format, but paraphrase each requirement, which is a lot of additional work, and can lead to erroneous interpretations.

International copyright law is applied differently in different countries. To be safe, it's best to contact the copyright owner to ensure there is no copyright infringement or violation for your proposed use.

Hope this helps,
Patricia Ravanello

P.S. On a related note, when I approached the IATF/IAOB for similar permission to use the ISO/TS 16949 Technical Specification, I was told:

We can not give you copyright permission to use 100% of the TS text for two reasons:

1) We do not own the ISO text (box portion), so you would have to get permission from ISO

2) The IATF will only allow copyright for 10% of the TS text.

Additionally they have a further restriction that prevents them from permitting any type of usage for I believe, 6 months (if memory serves me) following the release of a new standard (such as ISO 9001:2008)
 

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Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
Answer 2 - If your site has a copyright document, the auditor can be explained that the tables are taken from the standard for use within the organization. Btw, I do not think any auditor would object this.
The Auditors don't own the standard, and are not the ISO copyright police. Additionally, their objection or approval is a moot point.

Patricia Ravanello
 
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