Request for annual PPAP by Tier 1 instead of an annual layout

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
A tier one that I have been supplying for years has now "requested" annual PPAP, not just layout, which GM his customer does not require itself but a whole blown PPAP.
Has anyone else any war stories!!!!



Fully vaccinated are you?
Well, it's not ONLY you. I have had clients which had customers requiring a full PPAP once a year, including a FULL dimensional layout.

David Guffey

Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where it matters not what the standard says. The customer has communicated the expectation and it must (or at least should) be met.


Fortunately, only ONE of our customers is requiring "annual recertification" of their parts (PPAP). UNfortunately, this customer is #2 as far as quantity of automotive parts are concerned.

It really, really sucks.


This is more and more common. I think this is a spinoff of the old "Certification" everyone used to send - "We certify the product conforms..."

Some reasons for this? Example---
This is misuse of the term "Annual PPAP." Where in the standard does it state this? However, due to the concerns listed above and elsewhere, not all folks are performing PPAP's according to the standard, or customer expectations. The auditors usually check the PPAP files for a "current" PPAP. This usually means checking the current revision of the customer's drawing, then verifying the PPAP on file lists this revision level. How easy it is to require your suppliers to help fulfil this requirement by requesting an annual PPAP. This almost always assures a current PPAP to the current drawing.

Another example---
If I do "Supplier Development" well, I have a reliable supplier, whose measurements I trust. Submitting a Level III PPAP allows me to sit at my desk and review the documents. Maybe even send a couple of parts to the measurement lab for verification. Not too many resources in use there. And my suppliers will use many of their resources to accomplish this, and I don't have to.

I just will not do APQP well, and I will not have the resources my sales staff promised when they land the new project, and there was no communication for resource planning or allocation, and I don't understand capability, and so I need data for my file...
Heh heh...


Good News, Just received my new copy of the third edition (PPAP), now everything will be crystal clear and there will be no more questions.

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Now that the TS has changed its requirement for layout from "according to customer frequency" to "as specified in the control plan"
How are you defining frequency?
Have you had demands from customers?
Is annual PPAP still required?


another day closer
Here were I am we have only one of our Automotive Customers requiring a Yearly Level 3 PPAP submission. All others only require it for the initial submission. The non-automtive customers only require a FLA, PSW & Full Layout.

Ron Rompen

Trusted Information Resource
And of COURSE this was all addressed at contract review and APQP, right?
:lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao:

There are a few things you have to consider when faced with the 'out of the blue' requirement for annual PPAP submission.

The first is, of course, feasibility. Can you do it, in the time frame given? If you can't, then you need to advise your customer immediately. See what you can negotiate...what does he REALLY need, and why? You'd be suprised at the number of SQE's who ask for it because 'I thought it was a requirement' or 'a friend of mine at XXX Ltd. does it, and it works well for them' and similar.

The second is cost impact. How much time and resources will it take you to do this? I was asked this year for a PPAP (Full Lvl 3 with Cpk analysis, PLUS full Lvl 3 from my material, heat treat, deburring and coating supplier) on a part which has a TOTAL SALES VOLUME of <$1000 Cdn (no, I didn't miss any zeros....this is a service part which sells for penies). In this case, I went to our Sales Manager, and politely told him to send our customer a quotation for $2500 for PPAP submission. Needless to say, the matter went no further.

Third and last is customer relations. How important is this customer to you, both now, and in the future. And remember, whatever you say WILL get repeated to everyone else in the world, especially the one customer you wished had never heard it. If you're going to say no, then be polite, be diplomatic, and try and find a happy meeting point. Since customer requirements supercede QS (and I believe TS) requirements, they can define a 'PPAP Submission' to be anything they want, rather than use the AIAG guidelines. I am very specific in my communications to the customer when talking about Lvl 4 PPAP's....I outline EXACTLY what I am going to do, and leave no question in their mind that there will be nothing else done (but not submitted). If the customer approves this (in writing....verbal isn't worth the paper it's written on :rolleyes: ) then (as far as I know) you are in the clear.

Fourth, and most important. The only reason we (the quality community, and our employers) exist is to make the customer happy. Sometimes, that means you have to roll over and beg.....know when to surrender, and comply. And try and do it with a smile on your face :nopity:
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