Requirements for Critical Characteristics, Cutomer driven and Internal

R

RMedrano

#1
Our internal procedure works like this, no matter what the customer is and what the symbols/nomenclature they use, our internal prints are maked with either a CC symbol or an FF CC's are criticals that we have identified internaly and track using SPC and monitor Capability, FF's are the characteristics that are customer driven and get the same treatment.

Is it common or heard of to use SPC on characteristics that are not critical, or that you do not monitor capability on?

My boss wants to put CC's on all of our internal prints for items that we are tracking with Control Charts.

Is this the right thing to do? Is it not possible to permanently track a variable measurement with an SPC chart if its not a Critical Characteristic?

Just trying to see what others in the Automotive industry have seen or experienced
 
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M

Michael Walmsley

#2
Our internal procedure works like this, no matter what the customer is and what the symbols/nomenclature they use, our internal prints are maked with either a CC symbol or an FF CC's are criticals that we have identified internaly and track using SPC and monitor Capability, FF's are the characteristics that are customer driven and get the same treatment.

If you have a policy that conveys to your customers that your FMEA's are proprietary,you can do with them as you will.

Is it common or heard of to use SPC on characteristics that are not critical, or that you do not monitor capability on?

It is not common to use SPC on characteristics that are not critical,but certainly can be done. Especially when you may have purchased production equipment that includes automated inspection of process parameters.
What do you mean by "Is it common or heard of to use SPC on characteristics that you do not monitor capability on? How can you do this?????


My boss wants to put CC's on all of our internal prints for items that we are tracking with Control Charts.

This is valid. It is what you are supposed to do.

Is this the right thing to do? Is it not possible to permanently track a variable measurement with an SPC chart if its not a Critical Characteristic?

Sure. However , note it in the "current controls" column of your FMEA. Not your control plan. eg. If your equipment is such that you get the inspection for free,log it in the FMEA. If the characteristic is not "special",you need not include in your Control Plan.

Just trying to see what others in the Automotive industry have seen or experienced

If your company does not have a policy that conveys that your FMEA's are proprietary,then make one. Do not roll over and accept your customers "special" characteristics. It makes life ****. Especially if you provide the same component to multiple customers.

See the attached. This was written prior to my jumping ship to the HealthCare industry.
 

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R

RMedrano

#3
So, If we want to track a particular variable, significant or not, we need to add the CC symbol to our print, but only reflect that in the FMEA and not on the control plan?


What spawned this whole question was that we recently had our continuous assesment TS audit in april, and one of the auditors wrote us up for not having all the CC's that were on our control plans not on the FMEA's as well.

In an effort to go completely paperless, we wanted to start entering all variable data that we collect on logsheets into our Computerized SPC system, eliminating the need for the paper logsheets, but in order to accomplish this from what you are saying we would need to place the CC symbol on every one of these dimensions on our internal prints, and then reference them in the FMEA?

sorry if I am being redundant, I am just making sure I am understanding your reccommendation.
 
M

Michael Walmsley

#4
So, If we want to track a particular variable, significant or not, we need to add the CC symbol to our print, but only reflect that in the FMEA and not on the control plan?

NO!

If the variable is not "critical" and you want to track it , note that you have this covered in the current controls column of your FMEA. Do not add a special characteristic to your FMEA ,or print. Do not add it to your control plan.

Only add special characteristics to your FMEA, print and control plan that are required (by RPN or whatever ).

DO NOT purposefully "inflate" items to special characteristic status if they do not meet the criteria. There is no value in this and increased liability!!
 
R

RMedrano

#5
What if it is an Item that is already on the control plan, but is not a special characteristic, and is currently recorded on a logsheet?

you wouldnt want to remove the item, would you?
 
M

Michael Walmsley

#6
Yes I would.
It would not be a valid entry.

The control plan is specifically meant to track valid "special" characteristics.

For me ,
the criteria used to assign special characteristics was :
Severity >8 , Occurence>1 = "CC" (Product Safety)

Severity>5 , Occurence >4 and Detection ="X" such that RPN >120 = "SC"
or Customer designated characteristic = SC

These would be noted in the FMEA's , prints and control plans.

Outside of this realm, no "special" characteristic would be assigned in the documentation.
 
R

RMedrano

#7
Hmm interesting Michael, so you do not have any process paramaters or any setup validation activities listed on your control plans unless they are severe enough on your FMEA?

just to make sure you understand, we have no CC(safety) characteristics on any of our parts. We use the CC characteristic as our Internal version of the SC/FF symbol. sometimes that confuses people.

Interesting idea's michael. I will have to bring these up to the powers that be.



Michael Walmsley said:
Yes I would.
It would not be a valid entry.

The control plan is specifically meant to track valid "special" characteristics.

For me ,
the criteria used to assign special characteristics was :
Severity >8 , Occurence>1 = "CC" (Product Safety)

Severity>5 , Occurence >4 and Detection ="X" such that RPN >120 = "SC"
or Customer designated characteristic = SC

These would be noted in the FMEA's , prints and control plans.

Outside of this realm, no "special" characteristic would be assigned in the documentation.
 
M

Michael Walmsley

#8
Hmm interesting Michael, so you do not have any process paramaters or any setup validation activities listed on your control plans unless they are severe enough on your FMEA?

True.

You could if you wish to.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
I'll address the original questions presently, but first,

RMedrano said:
What if it is an Item that is already on the control plan, but is not a special characteristic, and is currently recorded on a logsheet?

you wouldnt want to remove the item, would you?
Michael Walmsley said:
Yes I would.
It would not be a valid entry.

The control plan is specifically meant to track valid "special" characteristics.
If we follow Michael's reasoning to its logical conclusion, if there are no "special" characteristics, then there is no control plan. Of course, there has to be a control plan, so if it's reserved for special characteristics only, we're forced to make up special characteristics that aren't really special in order to have something other than blankness on a control plan. :frust:

In point of fact, a control plan should be used to record all of the process characteristics that must be controlled in order to produce a conforming product. Remember--it's not supposed to be an inspection plan--it's a process control plan.

Now to the original questions:
RMedrano said:
Is it common or heard of to use SPC on characteristics that are not critical, or that you do not monitor capability on?
Yes and no. But it all depends on how "critical" is defined. It's easy to lapse into circular reasoning: It's critical, so we do SPC, and we do SPC because it's critical. If you're not monitoring capability, why do SPC? What purpose is being served? If you're not doing something to improve the process with the data your're collecting, why do it?

RMedrano said:
Is it not possible to permanently track a variable measurement with an SPC chart if its not a Critical Characteristic?
Others will disagree with me, but I think that most times that SPC is done in perpetuity on a given part or characteristic, the point of doing SPC has been lost. You should use SPC to prove that the process parameters that have been prescribed will perform as intended. Once you have that evidence, there might not be any reason to do charting any longer. Having said that, if you are "permanently" charting some variable, it's fine so long as some clear and reasonable purpose is being served by it.
 
B

Bill Ryan - 2007

#10
Maybe I'm not fully undeerstanding, but there is nothing that states a feature is a "CC", or anything else, just because you decide you wish to chart or measure it. While Michael's methodology for a Control Plan reflects his organizations requirements for something being included in their Control Plans, it is not necessarily so with other organizations. I have customers now requiring 100% of the part drawing's features reflected in the Control Plan.
 
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