Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR?s/Observations - ?Top Management? ? Clause 5.4

[Jeff Frost]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

Having looked at your matrix which lists dates and values and reviewing the auditors comments it looks like he or she is indicating you have defined a goal and date but you either do not have or did not supply objective evidence (data supporting the existence or verity of something (ISO 9000:2005, 3.8.1)) that you are progressing towards the quality objectives you have stated.

In regards to why this finding of nonconformity is not classified as minor or major is becasue the ISO 19011 audit standard does not use a classification system for nonconformities. The audit standard only states the audit findings can indicate conformity or nonconformity to audit criteria (in this case ISO 9001:2000) and opportunities for improvements (ISO 19011, 3.4). The contract with the assessor usually defines what constitutes a minor or major finding of nonconformity.

 

[Britman - 2012]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

You have time (xx/xx/xxxx)

That was his main concern the "xx/xx/xxxx", however this stage is clearly being reviewed and planned as stated in the 1st thread.

 

[Britman - 2012]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

Britman:

Are these the actual objectives stated in your quality management system? In review, I'd have to know a bit more about what your organization does

We design and manufacture electronic solutions to a range of customers, in the main non-commercial.

These are part of the QMS, the auditor verified, 3 of the measured results

 

[Colin]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

I will leave the debate over the finer points of the objectives to others as it is being explored very nicely.

My thoughts go back to our regular debates regarding variation in auditing. It is true that there has to be variation but I wonder how much of this is down to (CB) company policy and how much is down to personal preference on the part of the auditor?

Assuming this report is reviewed when it gets back to the CB's office, who is going to challenge the auditor and ask why he raised it and perhaps cross check with other reports from the same auditor? Don't hold your breath waiting!!

 

[potdar]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

The actual word "target" isn't used. Basically, objectives would be a combination of "what and how much", or the objective could be purely "time" based (like starting a new process by a certain date)

Is what you've attached what was in place? If so, I wonder what the problem is?

You have objectives

They can be measured (there will be evidence of their being met)

They are documented

Pardon me, the whole discussion so far seems to revolve around "what and how much" or "xx/xx/xxxx".

I seem to have forgotten whether these are requirements of the objectives or of the standard at all.

Would anyone please enlighten?

 

[Britman - 2012]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

My thoughts go back to our regular debates regarding variation in auditing. It is true that there has to be variation but I wonder how much of this is down to (CB) company policy and how much is down to personal preference on the part of the auditor?

Assuming this report is reviewed when it gets back to the CB's office, who is going to challenge the auditor and ask why he raised it and perhaps cross check with other reports from the same auditor? Don't hold your breath waiting!!

I agree there are personal preferences, in this instance both the auditor and I agree to disagree, with no bad feelings

I will prepare a simple corrective action report, forward to the auditor’s office, and continue the management of our QMS to the benefit of our customers, employees and company.

However personal "preference" open subjects for dicussions within the cove.

Thanks for all the replies.

 

[Britman - 2012]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

Pardon me, the whole discussion so far seems to revolve around "what and how much" or "xx/xx/xxxx".

I seem to have forgotten whether these are requirements of the objectives or of the standard at all.

Would anyone please enlighten?

The only requirement I understand is:

5.4.1, the quality objectives shall be measurable and consistent with the quality policy. (ISO9001)

Method to achieve them is upto your QMS - is this correct?

 

[potdar]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

The only requirement I understand is:

5.4.1, the quality objectives shall be measurable and consistent with the quality policy. (ISO9001)

Method to achieve them is upto your QMS - is this correct?

Measurable. Yes. But what said targets and time limits?

 

[somerqc]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

I have a slightly different take on how to respond.

I would respond like a customer that has not received good value for my money. I would never yell and scream, but, if I feel that I have objectives that meet the requirements of the standard. The auditor has no right to tell me what the time frames should be for my objectives. It is top management's decision regarding the time frames. From everything I have seen here, your management is dealing with a dramatic change in your customer base (and markets you serve as well?). That kind of thing is never resolved quickly.

If a discussion with the auditor doesn't resolve the "Show me shall" regarding times (objectives CAN be measurable without a time frame - Zero defects? measurable but you would never put a time frame on attaining zero defects), I would write a very calm letter to the auditor's boss regarding the findings.

Is this being mean? No, I don't think so. The auditor has no right to impose his/her personal requirements into the standard. I had an auditor do this to me before. I was very nice to him, spoke with him in a reasonable tone - couldn't be resolved directly with him (I would have had to fake data to get rid of the findings). Wrote a letter to his boss - eventually different auditors were assigned to our place. The new auditors were MUCH more reasonable and we received value for the $$ spent.

At this stage of my career, I will not have a auditor dictate how the system should operate IF if meets the requirement of the standard. I went so far as to interview auditors prior to having an auditor assigned to my current file!

 

[Randy]

Re: Responding to ISO9001 Audit NCR’s/Observations - “Top Management” – Clause 5.4

The only requirement I understand is:

Method to achieve them is upto your QMS - is this correct?

Yep, you betcha