Responsibilities in a Process Flowchart

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energy

My view from the bottom.

Jim Wade said:
Just trying to help, energy. :)
So what's your opinion or interpretation of the practical difference between a process and a procedure (bearing in mind the fact that the 'standard' tells us that they are two different things: see 9000 3.4.1 and 3.4.5)?
rgds Jim

Jim, I do appreciate the help. Really. But, you ask more questions than actually help me with a straight answer. But, that's what teachers do, ain't it?:lick:

To me, I show you a flowchart which contains our Order Entering Process. Shows what we do, inputs and putputs. That flowchart also represents a procedure that a new sales person can use to see all the things that are part of the process. Does it say "Sit by the phone and wait for a call"? No. If I flew up another 20, 000ft and look down, you can see now see other flowcharts all around that one. Guess you could now say that it's part of a overall process. Now, it looks like my flowchart of our Q Plan. The Q plan also shows specific steps in a process. Is it a procedure? To me, yes. Miss one of those steps and you are inviolation of the "procedure". Can you cite an N/C for violating a process?
I'm getting a headache and it's Sunday and almost time for that western decadent show "The Sopranos".

Incidentally, last night I watched an HBO Original Movie called "Gathering Storm" about Winston Churchill. Excellent. He really had a real hard time convincing his countrymen what was happening in the Rheinland. I must confess that I was fascinated by his "Bowler". :vfunny: Vanessa Redgrave and Albert Finney? were outstanding, as Mr. & Mrs. C. Rent it!:p
:ko: :smokin:
 
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M Greenaway

Isnt the requirement to document the sequence and interaction of processes, not the actual steps needed to perform the process.

By flowcharting the process steps hasnt the company taken the decision that it is a necessary control for product quality to ensure the process is conducted as described by the flowchart ? Isnt it therefore reasonable to point out at audit (or whatever) if a process is not being conducted in accordance with the companies planned arrangments defined in its flowchart ?
 
M

M Greenaway

Thanks Jim, I think we have a common understanding of Process and Procedure.

So from Mr Energy's question about getting an N/C for violation of a process, is this in fact not applicable as a process doesnt describe a way to conduct an activity - that is a procedure (or flowchart) ?

Also going back to Mr Energy's question on what would be audited in the absence of a procedure, I would say that the process would be audited against the applicable requirements of ISO9001:2000. Clearly without a procedure the steps used to achieve the result would be insignificant compared to the actual effectiveness of the process - you dig ?
 

E Wall

Just Me!
Trusted Information Resource
energy said:

How important is it to show responsibilities (who) for functions on a process flow chart? Is it? If it is, how do you address this? Would the flow charts have to be tiered in such a way as to show who is responsible for a particular function? :rolleyes:
:ko: :smokin:

The path I've chosen to follow provides a matrix of responsibilities/authorities (as process custodians) for each of the processes we have identified in our QMS. Then on the process flow charts the only reference is between a process user (operators/engineers/supv/etc...) and the process Custodian (manger responsible).

The matrix lists positions down the left and processes across the top, then in the grids use keys to identify responsibility (C = Custodian, I = Input, O = Output, R = Records, S = Supplier).


Here's my dilema though:
Before I left I made packets for each process custodian for their use to identify the key components of each process, including what documents they currently use...with the goal of reviewing and compliling process flow charts. Upon my return (5 weeks out) I find that nobody did anything! And yes, the plant manager was in my corner before I left...but the QA Mgr (after people started asking question that he couldn't answer) told everyone to hold off until I got back.

I came back so rested and excited about the project only to be slapped in the face.

Some days I think I need a new job now...rather than wait to the end of the summer.... I'm disgusted and frustrated by it all. Management tells me this must be done, I tell them the best case senario that needs to be followed in order to complete ontime, and then everyone just sits on their hands waiting for me to do it all! Well *()&%$)* THEM! :frust:

Thanks for letting me vent! :ko: Maybe I should switch the water to vodka in my water bottles.....
Eileen
 
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Michael T

Let me see if I understand this...

Jim, Martin, Marc, Eileen, et. al.:

I think I just had a moment of panic/hysteria/frustration...

Am I understanding this correctly? For every process we have, we must have a process map? That process map should define all of the various interactions between related processes, define the procedures within that process, define the analysis, monitoring & measurement activities to be conducted, be documented and list the types of records kept and somehow show how management has reviewed and approved this?

Is this right? :confused:
 
M

M Greenaway

Michael

I wonder if your choice of the word 'define' is intentional. ISO9001 requires us to 'define' a lot of things but this does not necessarily mean in a documented procedure. Procedures can be defined by, for example a computer system that only allows things to be done a certain way, or by custom and practice.
 
E

energy

Re: Let me see if I understand this...

Michael T said:

Jim, Martin, Marc, Eileen, et. al.:

I think I just had a moment of panic/hysteria/frustration...

Am I understanding this correctly? For every process we have, we must have a process map? That process map should define all of the various interactions between related processes, define the procedures within that process, define the analysis, monitoring & measurement activities to be conducted, be documented and list the types of records kept and somehow show how management has reviewed and approved this?

Is this right? :confused:

This just came in from AQS. it's a seminar scheduled for next month. here's what they offer:

Learn how to map your processes

Make procedures and work instructions simpler and user friendly - cut down on Quality System documentation by 50%!

ISO 9001: 2000 requires the adoption of a process approach. Companies that develop effective and efficient processes are those most likely to succeed.

NEQC is pleased to offer this course again after training over 50 companies to help document processes, procedures, and work instructions effectively. Understand what process mapping is and how it differs from flow-charting and regular procedural text. Learn how to make your quality management system easy to develop, implement, and understand by all employees AND beneficial to the bottom line. This course provides the tools and methodology to identify your current business processes and provide a future roadmap for re-engineering your processes.

I will be attending. As for the differences,
I'll be the judge of that! :vfunny: :ko: :smokin:
 
M

Michael T

M Greenaway said:

Michael

I wonder if your choice of the word 'define' is intentional. ISO9001 requires us to 'define' a lot of things but this does not necessarily mean in a documented procedure. Procedures can be defined by, for example a computer system that only allows things to be done a certain way, or by custom and practice.

Martin,

Yes - my definition of defined is intentional and means documented. If it is not documented how can it be defined and how can it be verified during an audit?

Thanks!

Mike
 
M

M Greenaway

As my previous post stated something can be defined without necessarily being documented. Examples given were a computer system and custom and practice.

So for example if I were to audit your order entry system you might tell be the process is defined by the computer system. I would interview the people entering orders and see by demonstration that the computer system indeed defines the order entry process steps, and certain things like error proofing have been taken into account. If I find that everyone entering orders uses the same system in the same way I might also conclude that the process steps are defined by custom and practice.

No problemo.
 
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