Root Cause Analysis done on the wrong observation

D

donaldj

Hi
An audit team came in and had some observation. Management had to do a root cause on these observation. Some of the audit team observation are incorrect. Management still went ahead and did a root cause analysis and came up with a solution that did not fix anything but instead caused more issue.
Management is under the impression that they needed to come up with a solution.
Here is one of the issue
An employee works the off shift and does not have any issue with coming during the day for meeting or making phonecalls during the day when he is not working.
The auditor observation was that the employee does not get access to daytime activities etc..
Management is fully aware that the employee does extra but they still did a root cause with the solution was to bring the employee to dayshift.
This has caused more issue. The employee is now back on the off shift and now refuses to come in for meeting, or answer his phone when he is not working.
This is a true incident.
The observation was incorrect and managment did a wrong root cause analysis.
I am trying to find information when an auditor observation are incorrect what should have be done.
 
G

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
If it is an "observation" and not a non-conformance, then management can do what they want. Even with a non-conformance, you can makes sure that the problem is properly identified. The first thing they should have done is make sure the problem was properly identified.
 
D

donaldj

Thanks golfman.. This is correct
"The first thing they should have done is make sure the problem was properly identified."

Can you refer me to any material that discuss this.

If the problem was not properly identified. How should this have be addressed.
 
Q

qualityfox

I agree with Jennifer - Show me the "shall". I don't see how this got written even as an observation. It should have been discussed before the auditor left. Your management also needs to understand that observations do not need to have corrective actions assigned, but rather, just consider if the auditor has a valid point. Auditors do not know as much about your company as you do, so sometimes their observations are not valid.:2cents:
 
D

donaldj

qualityfox said:
I agree with Jennifer - Show me the "shall". I don't see how this got written even as an observation. It should have been discussed before the auditor left. Your management also needs to understand that observations do not need to have corrective actions assigned, but rather, just consider if the auditor has a valid point. Auditors do not know as much about your company as you do, so sometimes their observations are not valid.:2cents:
Click to expand...

I also agree, management is under the impression that each and every problem mentioned by the auditor need to have a root cause analysis. I am trying to find anything written material that I can show to management that will explain what you wrote.
My problem is that I am no longer working with qms/ root cause etc so I do not know were to find the material.
 
G

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
donaldj said:
Thanks golfman.. This is correct
"The first thing they should have done is make sure the problem was properly identified."

Can you refer me to any material that discuss this.

If the problem was not properly identified. How should this have be addressed.
Click to expand...

Common sense?

Maybe look in the audit requirements from your registrar. They may have something which says non-conformances need corrective action is x number of days. By omission, an "observation" would not.
 
Q

qualityfox

The ISO standard does not mention "observations". This term just showed up one day and it doesn't want to go away. ISO 19011, Guideline for auditing, does mention "opportunities for improvement" which is what many people consider an observation to be. Golfman has a good suggestion to look at your registrar's requirements. Sometimes the audit report includes what the expectations are for response.
 
John Broomfield

John Broomfield

Leader
Super Moderator
donaldj said:
Hi
An audit team came in and had some observation. Management had to do a root cause on these observation. Some of the audit team observation are incorrect. Management still went ahead and did a root cause analysis and came up with a solution that did not fix anything but instead caused more issue.
Management is under the impression that they needed to come up with a solution.
Here is one of the issue
An employee works the off shift and does not have any issue with coming during the day for meeting or making phonecalls during the day when he is not working.
The auditor observation was that the employee does not get access to daytime activities etc..
Management is fully aware that the employee does extra but they still did a root cause with the solution was to bring the employee to dayshift.
This has caused more issue. The employee is no back on the off shift and now refuses to come in for meeting, or answer his phone when he is not working.
This is a true incident.
The observation was incorrect and managment did a wrong root cause analysis.
I am trying to find information when an auditor observation are incorrect what should have be done.
Click to expand...

donaldj,

I doubt the audit objective was to report on employees making unauthorized phone calls.

But it seems that your managers are keen to show their commitment to their management system.

...and this is a good thing. They have yet to complete their corrective action to make sure their problem solving does not create other problems.

But the auditor may need more training to become competent in fulfilling the audit objective.

You could also update your auditing contract and/or procedure to prohibit the reporting of observations. Instead, insist on audit findings that either:

A. Define a positive point, or
B. Define a nonconformity for correction and, possibly corrective action.

And specify that the audit report must include a conclusion (based on the findings) that answers the question posed by the audit objective.

Thank the managers for their commitment and encourage them to complete their corrective action as described above. Then ask them to work with you in developing their objectives for your internal audit programme.

You could also consider training in Pareto Analysis and 8D Problem Solving so the mostly costly problems are solved first.

Good luck,

John
 
Jen Kirley

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Leader
Admin
donaldj said:
I also agree, management is under the impression that each and every problem mentioned by the auditor need to have a root cause analysis. I am trying to find anything written material that I can show to management that will explain what you wrote.
My problem is that I am no longer working with qms/ root cause etc so I do not know were to find the material.
Click to expand...
Audit findings need to be clear, accurate, actionable and fair. Even registrars' corrective action requests can be disputed as per established procedure sanctioned by all accrediting bodies that I know of. I still do not understand the requirement your referenced audit finding is referenced against, and based on information provided I do not believe it is fair or actionable either. I can certainly appreciate management's wholehearted support of its audit team, but that support needs to be well founded. Sometimes pushback is right and proper.

:2cents:
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
G People don't participate in root cause analysis Nonconformance and Corrective Action 11
B NADCAP Rejection Response to Root Cause Analysis and Corrective Action. Nonconformance and Corrective Action 1
Q IATF audit - Root Cause Analysis results IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
T Tactics for Root Cause Analysis Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 4
T Root Cause Failure Analysis - Not following Customer packaging Specification Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 9
I Root Cause Analysis as Training ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 10
F Struggling with a root cause analysis - Customer Returns - Escape issue Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 15
I Root Cause Analysis when someone simply stops performing a task? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 16
S Root cause analysis - The system of developing a work instruction is not effective Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 1
I What if your root cause analysis is -- they just didn't do it?" Nonconformance and Corrective Action 3
P Examples of Nonconformance, Corrective Action Requests, and Root Cause Analysis Nonconformance and Corrective Action 2
Q Loss of Personnel - Root Cause Analysis ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
Q Risk Tools in ISO 31010 - Root Cause Analysis vs. Cause-and-effect Analysis ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 1
E Root Cause Analysis - Is Insufficient Understanding an acceptable Root Cause? General Auditing Discussions 9
W Root Cause Analysis Requirements per TS 16949:2009 Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 8
J Required on-site training on writing deviations & root-cause analysis Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
I What's special about your RCAs (Root Cause Analysis)? Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 11
K Quality Manual Problem Root Cause Analysis Nonconformance and Corrective Action 8
E Using Facebook to discuss Root Cause Analysis (8D) ! Nonconformance and Corrective Action 3
F Need advise on Root Cause analysis for printing issue Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 3
P Is it necessary to perform Root Cause Analysis for each failed part? Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 16
B Root Cause Analysis and Corrective Action Program for Inventory Inaccuracies Nonconformance and Corrective Action 8
R Root Cause Analysis of Audit Findings - New Quality Manager Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 20
A Recommend good Root Cause Analysis Training Courses in the UK Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 8
J Nadcap finding Inadequate Procedure and Inadequate Root Cause Analysis Nonconformance and Corrective Action 4
Booker Root Cause Analysis for Minor Non-Conformities identified in an Audit Nonconformance and Corrective Action 13
S Root Cause Analysis of Motor Performance Failure Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
R Triggering Root Cause Analysis for Hardware Returns Nonconformance and Corrective Action 3
Fender1 Corrective Action and Root Cause Analysis for a Missing Assembly Part ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
D Root Cause Analysis and "Comprehensive List of Causes" Nonconformance and Corrective Action 4
P Which Root Cause Analysis Method is the most Effective? Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 16
K Complex Cause Root Cause Analysis Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 3
P Smart or Sexy (CAR) - Poor Root Cause Analysis and Poor Effectiveness Check Nonconformance and Corrective Action 8
Moncia How to do a Root Cause Failure Analysis ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 72
R Assembling a Cross Functional Root Cause Analysis Team Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 4
T Lollipop Production Line Problems - Defectives and Root Cause Analysis Reliability Analysis - Predictions, Testing and Standards 6
K Do all Customer Complaints require Root Cause Analysis? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 9
K Incident Investigation vs. Root Cause Analysis ? What?s the difference? Customer Complaints 16
Anerol C Root Cause Analysis Coding System Nonconformance and Corrective Action 11
J Root Cause Analysis in a ISO 17025 Testing Laboratory ISO 17025 related Discussions 6
M Root Cause Analysis and Personal Blame ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
S Noneffective Root Cause Analysis: 6M Fish-Bone Template Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 1
L Root Cause Analysis Training Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 12
W What can be Root Cause Analysis Methodology - Heat Treatment of Carbon-based Products Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 5
Z Root Cause Failure Analysis for NADCAP AMS2750D Audit Finding help wanted AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 3
S Root Cause Analysis & Cause and Effect Diagram Customer Complaints 5
J Root Cause Failure Analysis of a Shipping Error Problem Solving, Root Cause Fault and Failure Analysis 37
S Root Cause Analysis Taxonomy - Categorising the reasons for non-conformances ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
D Do all Non Conformance Reports need a detailed Root Cause Analysis? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 13
D Root Cause Analysis (Medical Devices) - Management Support Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 14

Similar threads

Top Bottom