Root Cause Analysis done on the wrong observation

#1
Hi
An audit team came in and had some observation. Management had to do a root cause on these observation. Some of the audit team observation are incorrect. Management still went ahead and did a root cause analysis and came up with a solution that did not fix anything but instead caused more issue.
Management is under the impression that they needed to come up with a solution.
Here is one of the issue
An employee works the off shift and does not have any issue with coming during the day for meeting or making phonecalls during the day when he is not working.
The auditor observation was that the employee does not get access to daytime activities etc..
Management is fully aware that the employee does extra but they still did a root cause with the solution was to bring the employee to dayshift.
This has caused more issue. The employee is now back on the off shift and now refuses to come in for meeting, or answer his phone when he is not working.
This is a true incident.
The observation was incorrect and managment did a wrong root cause analysis.
I am trying to find information when an auditor observation are incorrect what should have be done.
 
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Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#2
If it is an "observation" and not a non-conformance, then management can do what they want. Even with a non-conformance, you can makes sure that the problem is properly identified. The first thing they should have done is make sure the problem was properly identified.
 
#4
Thanks golfman.. This is correct
"The first thing they should have done is make sure the problem was properly identified."

Can you refer me to any material that discuss this.

If the problem was not properly identified. How should this have be addressed.
 

qualityfox

Involved In Discussions
#5
I agree with Jennifer - Show me the "shall". I don't see how this got written even as an observation. It should have been discussed before the auditor left. Your management also needs to understand that observations do not need to have corrective actions assigned, but rather, just consider if the auditor has a valid point. Auditors do not know as much about your company as you do, so sometimes their observations are not valid.:2cents:
 
#6
I agree with Jennifer - Show me the "shall". I don't see how this got written even as an observation. It should have been discussed before the auditor left. Your management also needs to understand that observations do not need to have corrective actions assigned, but rather, just consider if the auditor has a valid point. Auditors do not know as much about your company as you do, so sometimes their observations are not valid.:2cents:
I also agree, management is under the impression that each and every problem mentioned by the auditor need to have a root cause analysis. I am trying to find anything written material that I can show to management that will explain what you wrote.
My problem is that I am no longer working with qms/ root cause etc so I do not know were to find the material.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#7
Thanks golfman.. This is correct
"The first thing they should have done is make sure the problem was properly identified."

Can you refer me to any material that discuss this.

If the problem was not properly identified. How should this have be addressed.
Common sense?

Maybe look in the audit requirements from your registrar. They may have something which says non-conformances need corrective action is x number of days. By omission, an "observation" would not.
 

qualityfox

Involved In Discussions
#8
The ISO standard does not mention "observations". This term just showed up one day and it doesn't want to go away. ISO 19011, Guideline for auditing, does mention "opportunities for improvement" which is what many people consider an observation to be. Golfman has a good suggestion to look at your registrar's requirements. Sometimes the audit report includes what the expectations are for response.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
Hi
An audit team came in and had some observation. Management had to do a root cause on these observation. Some of the audit team observation are incorrect. Management still went ahead and did a root cause analysis and came up with a solution that did not fix anything but instead caused more issue.
Management is under the impression that they needed to come up with a solution.
Here is one of the issue
An employee works the off shift and does not have any issue with coming during the day for meeting or making phonecalls during the day when he is not working.
The auditor observation was that the employee does not get access to daytime activities etc..
Management is fully aware that the employee does extra but they still did a root cause with the solution was to bring the employee to dayshift.
This has caused more issue. The employee is no back on the off shift and now refuses to come in for meeting, or answer his phone when he is not working.
This is a true incident.
The observation was incorrect and managment did a wrong root cause analysis.
I am trying to find information when an auditor observation are incorrect what should have be done.
donaldj,

I doubt the audit objective was to report on employees making unauthorized phone calls.

But it seems that your managers are keen to show their commitment to their management system.

...and this is a good thing. They have yet to complete their corrective action to make sure their problem solving does not create other problems.

But the auditor may need more training to become competent in fulfilling the audit objective.

You could also update your auditing contract and/or procedure to prohibit the reporting of observations. Instead, insist on audit findings that either:

A. Define a positive point, or
B. Define a nonconformity for correction and, possibly corrective action.

And specify that the audit report must include a conclusion (based on the findings) that answers the question posed by the audit objective.

Thank the managers for their commitment and encourage them to complete their corrective action as described above. Then ask them to work with you in developing their objectives for your internal audit programme.

You could also consider training in Pareto Analysis and 8D Problem Solving so the mostly costly problems are solved first.

Good luck,

John
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#10
I also agree, management is under the impression that each and every problem mentioned by the auditor need to have a root cause analysis. I am trying to find anything written material that I can show to management that will explain what you wrote.
My problem is that I am no longer working with qms/ root cause etc so I do not know were to find the material.
Audit findings need to be clear, accurate, actionable and fair. Even registrars' corrective action requests can be disputed as per established procedure sanctioned by all accrediting bodies that I know of. I still do not understand the requirement your referenced audit finding is referenced against, and based on information provided I do not believe it is fair or actionable either. I can certainly appreciate management's wholehearted support of its audit team, but that support needs to be well founded. Sometimes pushback is right and proper.

:2cents:
 
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