Run at Rate - when to perform / is it mandatory?

[Blaz123]

Hello all,

we are having some heated discussion internally ....

Is Run and Rate mandatory in automotive industry if is not required by the customer?

Let say, that our customer does not request a Run and Rate to be performed, do we need to do it anyway?

We had a preliminary audit from customer X who wanted to see a Run and Rate performed on customer Y's product. Since customer Y did not request a Run and Rate, we did not have one, but customer X defined this as non-conformity.


Thanks!

 

[Ashland78]

I believe it is run at rate and it is a requirement of the PPAP package that is required (18 elements). Can someone else confirm my thought? This would be done when doing capability for capacity.

 

[Blaz123]

If I rely on your comment, what if the customer does not require capacity calculation in the PPAP requirements? Is there any automotive requirement (IATF, ISO9001,...) that we have to mandatory perform Run & Rate by ourselves?

 

[Sebastian]

Not R&R, but IATF 16949 8.3.5.2 f)
For me it is and will be one of TOP organizational activities, even if it wasn't required by any of management standards.
Capacity analysis is crucial element of internal validation of newly developed manufacturing process.
Generally poorly managed worldwide and therefore "abilities of quality department staff to manage post-SOP quality meetings are essential for proper management of product quality level".

 

[Blaz123]

Sebastian, you probably are right.

8.3.5.2 Manufacturing process design output

The organization shall document the manufacturing process design output in a manner that enables verification against the manufacturing process design inputs. The organization shall verify the outputs against manufacturing process design input requirements. The manufacturing process design output shall include but is not limited to the following:

a) specifications and drawings;
b) special characteristics for product and manufacturing process;
c) identification of process input variables that impact characteristics ;
d) tooling and equipment for production and control, including capability studies of equipment and process(es);
e) manufacturing process flow charts/layout, including linkage of product, process, and tooling;
f) capacity analysis;
g) manufacturing process FMEA;
h) maintenance plans and instructions;
i) control plan (see Annex A );
j) standardised work and work instructions;
k) process approval acceptance criteria;
l) data for quality, reliability, maintainability, and measurability;
m) results of error-proofing identification and verification, as appropriate;
n) methods of rapid detection, feedback, and correction of product/manufacturing process nonconformities.

 

[Ashland78]

I think you would have to get a waiver from all your customers or allowed deviation, otherwise you are not compliant with IATF. I agree with Sebastian...

 

[Johnnymo62]

R&R or [email protected]?

 

[Ashland78]

R&R or [email protected]?

[email protected] I am thinking...

 

[Blaz123]

Yes, we are talking about [email protected] (Run at Rate) and not Run&Rate.

 

[Jim Wynne]

There's much confusion here.

• Run @ Rate is a specific type of capacity analysis, and capacity analysis can take many forms.
• There is no specific requirement for [email protected] in 16949. [email protected] is a General Motors thing (although there are other varieties). It's described in GM standard GP9. It's typically performed after PPAP approval, as confirmation of the production rate claimed on the PPAP warrant. It may or may not be witnessed by a customer representative.
• If it's not specifically required by a customer, it's not required of the supplier. Waivers aren't needed for "requirements" that don't exist.

As far as the OP's question is concerned, customer auditors should never be allowed to audit anything but their own requirements and products. Someone else's products and records are none of their business, quite literally.