Scales calibrated by an ISO 17025 accredited organization? TS 16949 requirement?

D

dbzman

#11
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Let's clarify equivalent. ;) ISO/IEC 17025 is an international standard, written in English. Here is the French version: NF EN ISO/CEI 17025. Exactly the same content, but written in French. Here is the Japanese version: JIS Q 17025:2005. That's what the standard means when it states: "or national equivalent." A national equivalent does not ease requirements, if that's what you are thinking. Hope this helps.

Stijloor.
Ahhh…

So that is what it means. There is no equivalent of 17025 in the USA; another country version of 17025 is the equivalent.

That explains a lot. Management will probably try to get a waiver from the customer for this requirement with respect to weight scales.

Thanks!

:biglaugh:
 
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BradM

Staff member
Admin
#12
Re: 17025 for weight scales

The supplier that we use to calibrate our weight scales is very close to our facility. We have had very good service with them and no problems. Why change?

Value added please?
17025 labs have demonstrated competence, and provide uncertainty analysis for your calibrations.

I understand your frustration. Frankly, if the supplier is any good, they should strive to get accredited.
 
D

dbzman

#13
Re: 17025 for weight scales

17025 labs have demonstrated competence, and provide uncertainty analysis for your calibrations.

I understand your frustration. Frankly, if the supplier is any good, they should strive to get accredited.
It would be nice but they may be too smal to justify the cost.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#14
Re: 17025 for weight scales

It would be nice but they may be too small to justify the cost.
Yea. You may be right. However.... if they run a good shop already, they may already be in compliance with much of it.

Also, it may mean more automotive business for them, that they currently cannot get. So it might be worth it for them to consider. Just a thought.:)
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#15
Same thing happened to us. However, our scale guy was certified by some state department of weights and measures or something like that. Auditor accepted it. Frankly, as applies to our scales it would have been a completely non-substantive finding -- we use the scales to count parts and weigh boxes for shipping (ie; UPS).

For our true measuring gages, we use a 17025 accredited ventor. Good luck.
 
V

vanputten

#16
I think DBMZMAN must be a master in the art of persuasion if he/she convinced the auditor that ISO 17025 did not apply to a measurement that affected product quality in lieu of a national equivalent but does not know what that national equivalent might be.

Awesome!!!
 
R

Richard Pike

#17
Re: 17025 for weight scales

I have, for some time, tried to get them to go to just ISO but one customer (TRW) has required it so they are sticking with TS.

I have no problem with meeting the standard I just need to know what “national equivalent” might be for a calibrations service.
If TS mentions an alternative to 17025 there must be one, right?

Thanks!

Whoa ! Stop ! read 7.6.3.2

there shall be evidence that the external laboratory is acceptable to the customer.

OR !!!!!!!!!!!! go the 17025 route.

So -get a letter from your customer - end of problem!

Also...

Controversial, but many auditors accept - if the gauge in question - is NOT used in the manufacture of Auto Products - then the requirements of ISO9001 (as opposed to 16949) can be interpreted as applicable.

At least its a valid argument, whereas the reasons you have put forward are just like a red flag to a bull auditor.
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#18
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Also...

Controversial, but many auditors accept - if the gauge in question - is NOT used in the manufacture of Auto Products - then the requirements of ISO9001 (as opposed to 16949) can be interpreted as applicable.

At least its a valid argument, whereas the reasons you have put forward are just like a red flag to a bull auditor.
We really can't begin to apply our opinions in place of the standard. TS does not say gages used to measure product. It says gages where valid results are necessary. Just because some auditor says he is "ok with it" does not make it so.

An alternative approach would be to look at calibrating or verifying shipping or weighing scales internally. It is not that complicated an activity, unless your needs are very precise.
 
T

TamTom

#19
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Whoa ! Stop ! read 7.6.3.2

there shall be evidence that the external laboratory is acceptable to the customer.

OR !!!!!!!!!!!! go the 17025 route.

So -get a letter from your customer - end of problem!

Also...
By reading the thread that came to my mind, TS accepts customer approval as well, and as far as we talking about one customer and the results are ok, so this is worth a try, and the costs could be a good argument also for the customer.

Greetings,

TamTom
 
R

Richard Pike

#20
Re: 17025 for weight scales

We really can't begin to apply our opinions in place of the standard. TS does not say gages used to measure product. It says gages where valid results are necessary. Just because some auditor says he is "ok with it" does not make it so.

An alternative approach would be to look at calibrating or verifying shipping or weighing scales internally. It is not that complicated an activity, unless your needs are very precise.
Used in the manufacture - or - where valid results are necessary -

If used in the manufacture then this implies they are necessary. The point I was making was - where valid results are necessary "for automotive products". Not everything is black and white in the Std so I still maintain this could be used as justification.

In -house calibration - yes that's a good idea. If its a scale then a reference sample / value (preferably coupled with a stability chart) would sort that out and their (non-17025) supplier could perform "maintenance".

I still believe the best and simplest way is to get a letter from Customer! If they refuse, then it becomes a customer requirement - and that's the end of that.

The items that I would look, at as an auditor - is what happened to contract review? what happened at internal audit? and if something as basic and clear as "calibration" is missed, does the organization really understand/accept the balance of the TS requirements.

Management commitment , from the originators comments - is quite obviously missing, so there is probably a number of other (perhaps more important) aspects of TS compliance that are suspect.
 
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