Scales calibrated by an ISO 17025 accredited organization? TS 16949 requirement?

D

dbzman

#21
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Used in the manufacture - or - where valid results are necessary -

If used in the manufacture then this implies they are necessary. The point I was making was - where valid results are necessary "for automotive products". Not everything is black and white in the Std so I still maintain this could be used as justification.

In -house calibration - yes that's a good idea. If its a scale then a reference sample / value (preferably coupled with a stability chart) would sort that out and their (non-17025) supplier could perform "maintenance".

I still believe the best and simplest way is to get a letter from Customer! If they refuse, then it becomes a customer requirement - and that's the end of that.

The items that I would look, at as an auditor - is what happened to contract review? what happened at internal audit? and if something as basic and clear as "calibration" is missed, does the organization really understand/accept the balance of the TS requirements.

Management commitment , from the originators comments - is quite obviously missing, so there is probably a number of other (perhaps more important) aspects of TS compliance that are suspect.


Let me answer/clarify a few items:

1. The scales are used on many orders, not just automotive.
2. We weigh the parts after placement in a basket to verify that they are within a certain weight range.
3. We have to have a basket loaded just so (not too heavy not too light) so that we can maximize profit and get the best results.
4. We have complete confidence in the supplier now doing the calibration. They have been our calibration supplier for the scales for many years and we have not had a problem.
5. We understand that the standard is requiring us to have a supplier that is certified. Of course we do not like giving up our current supplier and adding cost to the customer for this.

We would like to do this in-house if the cost were not so prohibitive. Right now the GM is asking for an appropriation for a pencil (exaggeration but not by much).
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#22
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Let me answer/clarify a few items:

1. The scales are used on many orders, not just automotive.
2. We weigh the parts after placement in a basket to verify that they are within a certain weight range.
3. We have to have a basket loaded just so (not too heavy not too light) so that we can maximize profit and get the best results.
4. We have complete confidence in the supplier now doing the calibration. They have been our calibration supplier for the scales for many years and we have not had a problem.
5. We understand that the standard is requiring us to have a supplier that is certified. Of course we do not like giving up our current supplier and adding cost to the customer for this.

We would like to do this in-house if the cost were not so prohibitive. Right now the GM is asking for an appropriation for a pencil (exaggeration but not by much).
Why not encourage your calibration services supplier to seek ISO/IEC 17025 accreditation? This may lead to more business for them.

Stijloor.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#23
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Let me answer/clarify a few items:

1. The scales are used on many orders, not just automotive.
2. We weigh the parts after placement in a basket to verify that they are within a certain weight range.
3. We have to have a basket loaded just so (not too heavy not too light) so that we can maximize profit and get the best results.
4. We have complete confidence in the supplier now doing the calibration. They have been our calibration supplier for the scales for many years and we have not had a problem.
5. We understand that the standard is requiring us to have a supplier that is certified. Of course we do not like giving up our current supplier and adding cost to the customer for this.

We would like to do this in-house if the cost were not so prohibitive. Right now the GM is asking for an appropriation for a pencil (exaggeration but not by much).
Worst case, what would be the result if the scales were not calibrated at all?
 
D

DaddyDow

#24
Re: 17025 for weight scales

No, ISO/TS 16949:2009 clearly states that the external (calibration) lab must be ISO/IEC 17025 accredited. So kudos for the auditor and regretfully a NC for your organization.

Stijloor.
I love all of the dialogue here, however I do disagree, the standard states no such thing. It states either one of two things, the first being evidence of customer acceptance OR certification to ISO 17025, not both. Evidence could be as simple as an approval on a warrant in a PPAP package that includes the certification from said supplier.
There is no basis for writing this audit finding if the site being audited has evidence that the customer is fine with them using a non-ISO 17025 certified vendor. It is one or the other not both, now if you want or if your customer wants you can get ISO 17025 certified or equivalent vendors.
An auditor would not leave my facility having wrote this as a finding, it says either/or, I always default to the easier or the either in this case, that being customer is satisfied with all current outside labs.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#25
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Let me answer/clarify a few items:

1. The scales are used on many orders, not just automotive.
2. We weigh the parts after placement in a basket to verify that they are within a certain weight range.
3. We have to have a basket loaded just so (not too heavy not too light) so that we can maximize profit and get the best results.
4. We have complete confidence in the supplier now doing the calibration. They have been our calibration supplier for the scales for many years and we have not had a problem.
5. We understand that the standard is requiring us to have a supplier that is certified. Of course we do not like giving up our current supplier and adding cost to the customer for this.

We would like to do this in-house if the cost were not so prohibitive. Right now the GM is asking for an appropriation for a pencil (exaggeration but not by much).
So does the weight have anything to do with acheiving the proper heat treatment? Ie; too light, bad Heat treat. If you're just using the scale to measure your throughput, then I don't see what the big deal is.

Is the guy doing you scale calibrations a scale guy or a calibration lab? I know the people we buy our scales from offer calibration as a service. I doubt that they would go thru the trouble of certification to 17025 just to calibrate scales.
 
D

dbzman

#26
Re: 17025 for weight scales

So does the weight have anything to do with acheiving the proper heat treatment? Ie; too light, bad Heat treat. If you're just using the scale to measure your throughput, then I don't see what the big deal is.

Is the guy doing you scale calibrations a scale guy or a calibration lab? I know the people we buy our scales from offer calibration as a service. I doubt that they would go thru the trouble of certification to 17025 just to calibrate scales.

It does matter about the weight as far as the results go (hardness requirements).
I belive that they are just a scale company and therefore not likly to get 17025. They are not a calibration service.
The customer did sign off on the PPAP which contained information on the scale company.
 
R

Richard Pike

#27
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Let me answer/clarify a few items:

1. The scales are used on many orders, not just automotive.
:thanx: for the clarification, it always helps.

Now that does pose a different question.

Its an automotive requirement, and the scales are used by non-automotive customers who are not interested in the requirement.

You can get a waiver from your automotive customer, but the balance of your customers (which may be many) would think you are deranged :bonk: for asking for a waiver on something they do not require anyway.

So the question is - do you only need a waiver from your automotive customer?

Or - because those customers have no requirement - can that be taken as implicit agreement that a non 17025 supplier can be used and thereby satisfy the TS requirement? :confused:
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#28
Re: 17025 for weight scales

Its an automotive requirement, and the scales are used by non-automotive customers who are not interested in the requirement.

You can get a waiver from your automotive customer, but the balance of your customers (which may be many) would think you are deranged :bonk: for asking for a waiver on something they do not require anyway.

So the question is - do you only need a waiver from your automotive customer?

Or - because those customers have no requirement - can that be taken as implicit agreement that a non 17025 supplier can be used and thereby satisfy the TS requirement? :confused:
The TS 16949 requirement only applies to subscribing automotive customers. There's no need for a waiver or letter of acceptability from any non-automotive customers.
 
R

Richard Pike

#29
Re: 17025 for weight scales

The TS 16949 requirement only applies to subscribing automotive customers. There's no need for a waiver or letter of acceptability from any non-automotive customers.
Thanks for that info. Do you perhaps have a reference for it?:read:
 
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