Scheduling IATF 16949 Audits - Audit Man-Days

QualitySpirit

Involved In Discussions
#1
Hello,

If any IATF recognized TS auditors read this thread, your input on this will be highly appreciated. I am a TS auditor myself, but I recently switched CB and it happens that the interpretation for audit planning is different.

At my former CB, if I am to plan an audit plan of 2.5MDs e.g. total 20hours

I have a freedom to plan like this.

Day 1: 1hour information review prior to opening + 7 hours TS audit
Day 2: 7 hours TS audit
Day 3: 6 hours TS audit

As long as the total TS audit hours = 20 hours and the audit plan satisfies other rules 5.2 requirements, Veto persons are fine with such planning.

I used this kind of concept to balance the audit. For example, if I need to go to a site far away that requires travel time of 5-6 hours. I would plan the first day a little shorter as I would reach the site in the afternoon and if the client has no night shift, it is totally impossible to audit them for another 8 hours.
Also I balance the second and third day workload.

However at my new CB
They insist in a case of 2.5MDs I have no other choices but to plan.
Day 1: 1hour information review prior to opening + 8 hours TS audit
Day 2: 8 hours TS audit
Day 3: 4 hours TS audit

The CB requires that I go one day prior to the audit and stay nearby the site so that I can undertake the audit for 1+8 hours in the first day, and the second day I also definitely have to plan for 8 hours no more no less.

The CB claimed this rule is from their oversight office, and there is not any flexibility on this regard.

I would be interested to hear if your IATF recognized CB also has this kind of regulation on audit planning.

Thank you in advance :)
 
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QualitySpirit

Involved In Discussions
#2
Re: Need inputs from IATF recognized TS auditors

Hi,
If you don't like to post, I would be grateful if you could send PM to me about your feedback and I won't share your feedback without your permission.

This new CB causes me real stress, as I don't want to travel one day earlier and have no flexibility to balance work loads.

If it is the case that the requirement is only applied at this CB specifically, I would certainly change to another CB under the previous oversight. :bigwave:
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: Need Inputs from IATF recognized TS 16949 Auditors

I do not see any problem with thisand have not had any problems with this.
The amount of time is a maximum not a minimum
From the rules

an audit day is typically a full normal working day of eight (8) hours. A half of an audit day istypically a working day of four (4) hours,
the total audit days may not be reduced by programming longer than eight (8) hours per working day. The only exception is on days when third shift work (i.e. shift that operates outside of the normal working hours of the site) is being covered. The additional hours spent auditing the third shift shall not exceed a maximum of 0.5 audit days (i.e. 4 hours) per audit,
Have you changed from one oversight body to another?
There still is a problem of uniformity between the i=oversight bodies
 

QualitySpirit

Involved In Discussions
#4
Re: Need Inputs from IATF recognized TS 16949 Auditors

Thank you.

Do you mean your CB allows planning with flexibility the same as my former CB does?

Yes, the CB I belong to now is under a different oversight from my previous CB's. It is not reasonable that different oversight offices have different rules while we are working under the same IATF rules.
 

Peters

Quite Involved in Discussions
#5
There are sometimes discussions in my CB about these calculations.
Reason for this discussion is text in Rules: "audit day is typically a full normal working day of eight (8) hours". So, some auditors and office personnel read this text literally and require exactly 8 hours, and some auditors and office personnel treat this flexibly. Well, there are sometimes problems with this flexible interpretation when it comes to talk with DAkkS accreditation or VDA.
As for me, the most important is the total amount of hours, not their distribution in days.
My experience:
In my CB I have never had problems with the verifier when sending a report with the days that have 7 hours. They check only total amount of hours/days.
When sometimes colleagues-auditors ask me "Will you approve my report during verification with the days that have 7 hours?", my answer is "yes."
 

QualitySpirit

Involved In Discussions
#6
Thank you Peters,

Yes the CB quoted exactly the rule sentence that you pointed out.

Actually what CB told me is quite funny.

They said the oversight requires to plan 8 hours per day.

But on the other hand for integrated ISO9001 + TS audit, they allow to count ISO9001 audit time into this 8 hours e.g. it is acceptable for them to plan in a day 6 hours TS audit + 2 hours ISO9001 audit.

This is totally confusing. In my opinion, oversight only has authority over TS16949 audit time while ISO9001 audit time is controlled by Accreditation Body not by them.
 
Last edited:

Peters

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
1. I remember several audits with the first day of a 2 or 4 hours. It was the best solution in relation with a travel to the company. And I remember some audits with the first day of a 8 hours but the audit started for example at 3 pm.

2. We have the problem that our bosses usually accept all the directives from oversight and accreditation body. It's difficult to discuss this.
 
Last edited:

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#8
Re: Need Inputs from IATF recognized TS 16949 Auditors

Thank you.



Yes, the CB I belong to now is under a different oversight from my previous CB's. It is not reasonable that different oversight offices have different rules while we are working under the same IATF rules.
Welcome to the real world:deadhorse:
Those of us that work for different CBs with different Oversight bodies know that there are great differences between them:bonk:
 

risk_experts

Starting to get Involved
#9
Audit days for QMS (EMS) are calculated on rules of International Accreditation Forum (IAF). Name of this document is IAF MD 5:2015.
 
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