Scope of a "process"? What is a Process?

[JaneB]

Re: Scope of a "processes"?

And a "system" is a collection of processes.

Try telling someone proudly displaying their brand new stereo system to you that it's just 'a collection of processes'. I think they'd disagree with you.

ISO 9000 defines a system as a 'set of interrelated or interacting elements'.

 

[Makrab]

Greeting People!!

I am updating our QM and just today I've completed revision in our Process Map. I thought I must share with u guys.

Anticipating your feedback and suggestions.

Thanks.

 

[Craig H.]

Re: Scope of a "processes"?

So, what is a system?

Yes, indeed.

We have some very interesting attachments in this thread. But, what it comes down to is what WORKS for YOU and your organization. The nice thing about ISO 9001 is that it has enough "wiggle room" for anyone to find out what really works for them. Just document it. If your company is in business, and is making money, most of the ISO 9001 stuff has already been done, most likely. Find it, write it down, and go on to more value added stuff.

There are some who are making this a lot more complicated than it has to be...

 

[Pancho]

I am updating our QM and just today I've completed revision in our Process Map. I thought I must share with u guys.

Good job Makrab! I like how succint your presentation is. Will adopt something similar for our own docs.

 

[AndyN]

Greeting People!!

I am updating our QM and just today I've completed revision in our Process Map. I thought I must share with u guys.

Anticipating your feedback and suggestions.

Thanks.

With respect, this is not 'your process map' (page 1) - it's a(nother) version of the diagram created by TC 176 to describe the concepts behind implementation of a QMS based on ISO 9001:2000!

It's likely - at least I would treat it this way - that you would receive a non-conformity from a CB because you haven't described the 'sequence and interaction' of your organization's processes.....

What's more, I rather doubt if your organizations processes follow a linear flow as described............indeed, there's no linkage (interaction) of the supplier selection to purchasing which is pretty fundamental!

My guess is you created this map yourself. Please start over, with your management and have them 'draw' the map - it won't be useful unless they participate and if you have it wrong (looks like it) they will blame you for any non-conformances.......

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Re: Scope of a "processes"?

.... Just document it. If your company is in business, and is making money, most of the ISO 9001 stuff has already been done, most likely. Find it, write it down, and go on to more value added stuff.

There are some who are making this a lot more complicated than it has to be...

Gee...where is basis for continual improvement, if all you do is document what is already happening?

I agree we should not overcomplicate ISO. But, defining processes and measuring their performance and effectiveness is crucial to optimizing your performance. Top athletes do it, as do all best performing companies that I see. Truly seeing (measuring) how each process performs drives strategic improvement.

That should be the foundation for a well craft ISO program, and is why the standard startsthere with cl 4.1, (planning) and ends there with cl 8.x (checking, studying and taking action).

 

[Helmut Jilling]

Greeting People!!

I am updating our QM and just today I've completed revision in our Process Map. I thought I must share with u guys.

Anticipating your feedback and suggestions.

Thanks.

I am inclined to agree with AndyN, but will add a comment.

1. You have defined what the processes are. That is a good start.

2. By itself, this document would not answer all the basic requirements in cl 4.1. To be compliant, you would need to document somewhere else the items in cl 4.1.b, c, d, e. I don't mind it it is in a different document, in order to keep this top level document clean and simple. One example is to make one document for each of these identified processes, and to define all the details per process in those documents. Makesitvery easy for other people to understand each process.

3. The main or core processes in your system may be linear, but the supporting processes typically are not. identifying and mapping them separated out might help to make that clear.

4. Many of my clients have a simple high level flowchart showing the sequence, and define the details in process specific diagrams, flows, procedures or turtles. Whatever fits for them.

good luck, you may be off to a pretty good beginning, but you are not finished yet.

 

[qualitymanager]

While I agree with the comments that it does not cover all the requirements of 4.1, I like the 2nd page because it provides a good starting point for control of processes (particlularly if the organization never viewed it this way before).

Another example of where the sequence of processes is not clearly identified is the link between inspection (incoming, in-process or final) and Control of Nonconforming Product and Corrective Action. These are linked elements I would expect any Regsitrar's Auditor to look for when auditing a QMS to ISO 9001 requirements.

 

[qualitymanager]

Re: Scope of a "processes"?

Try telling someone proudly displaying their brand new stereo system to you that it's just 'a collection of processes'. I think they'd disagree with you.

I'd love to see them get that 'system' certified to ISO 9001

ISO 9000 defines a system as a 'set of interrelated or interacting elements'.

Seems that I really need to get a copy of the ISO 9000 - my memory is unreliable these days

What I remembered was: Principle 5: System approach to management

Identifying, understanding and managing interrelated processes as a system contributes to the organization's effectiveness and efficiency in achieving its objectives.

 

[Makrab]

Thanks Andy, Helmut Jilling and qualitymanager for sparing time to review and comment on my post.

Andy, as you said 1st page is another version of diagram created by TC176. Yes it’s another version of that diagram and I don’t find anything wrong in it. I guess these standards are prepared to bring some standardization in various organizations.

I’ve also seen many process maps posted in this forums and in other Quality Manuals. But I thought what TC176 has done is more clear and acceptable. Personally I don’t prefer many linkages and many detailed processes and sub-processes cramped together in one chart.

Example Supplier Selection / Re-evaluation (Procedure # PRT-04.01) and Purchasing (PRT-04.03) these are two different processes handled separately. No doubt they are linked but to the some extent. Similarly, Receiving & Inspection of purchased material (PRT-05.03) is also “to the some extent” linked with Supplier Selection & Evaluation.

I agree with you that organization process flow are not linear, but they are so complex that if I try to bring everything on one piece of paper it won’t even help users to understand “basic” process flow.

As Helmut Jilling rightly suggested, this process Map is only a high level flowchart of our system. All processes mentioned on both pages have one or more than one documented procedures or flowcharts and I have listed them along with the process names.

We are already certified for ISO 9001:2000 with similar but much complex process map. Earlier, whenever a user or Auditor used to look at that that map, he used to ask us at least 20 / 25 questions. Therefore, we thought we will clear some mess while updating our QM for 2008 version.

I’m sure CB auditor will not “ONLY” refer our process map, therefore not worried much about NC.