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Scope of a "process"? What is a Process?

A

AndyN

Moved On
#31
#31
I see that the main problem with using the TC 176 diagram is likely to be that if you asked your management to describe it and compare it to what they do in business, they probably can't!

If the TC 176 version was supposed to be used instead of your own, it would imply that all businesses/organizations process are the same! That's obviously not true, is it?

In addition, why do you have to have it 'all on one bit of paper'? Perhaps you're making it too complex. I'd suggest that you don't do it! Maybe the fact that the previous process map elicited so many questions from an auditor was a clue in some way......
 
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J

JaneB

#32
#32
Re: Scope of a "processes"?

qualitymanager said:
I'd love to see them get that 'system' certified to ISO 9001 :D
Click to expand...
Be clear: You didn't refer to a 'quality management system' - you said 'system'.

qualitymanager said:
Seems that I really need to get a copy of the ISO 9000 - my memory is unreliable these days :(
Click to expand...
Yes, you do. You'll find that it has both those terms, defined separately. They are separate things. And I really don't find it valuable having discussions based on 'memory' !
 
J

JaneB

#33
#33
Makrab said:
as you said 1st page is another version of diagram created by TC176. Yes it’s another version of that diagram and I don’t find anything wrong in it.
Click to expand...
If you don't think there's anything 'wrong' with it, is there much point in asking for feedback? You seem to be disagreeing/rejecting what you've got, which is excellent feedback from highly experienced people. For what it's worth, I agree with Andy, Helmut et al: this is just another ho hum regurgitation of the diagram from the Standard. Yes, there are others like it in the forum - that doesn't mean they're excellent or recommended models either. (Try reading some of the posts and feedback on them)

This really doesn't tell me or anyone else about the functioning of your unique business.

And even more important: would your top management see it like that? Agree it's an accurate representation of how they see the business? :nope:
 
M

Makrab

Involved In Discussions
#34
#34
JaneB said:
If you don't think there's anything 'wrong' with it, is there much point in asking for feedback? You seem to be disagreeing/rejecting what you've got, which is excellent feedback from highly experienced people. For what it's worth, I agree with Andy, Helmut et al: this is just another ho hum regurgitation of the diagram from the Standard. Yes, there are others like it in the forum - that doesn't mean they're excellent or recommended models either. (Try reading some of the posts and feedback on them)
Click to expand...
Dear Jane,

I meant "nothing wrong if I copy TC diagram" and not what you understood.

Of course I was expecting feedback / suggestions and I always welcome those to improve myself. In my second post, I was only trying to justify my side. I know this forum is enriched with contents and resources because of people like you, Marc, Andy and many other experienced guys. I know I have missed many biggies here...

After Andy's reply to my post, I'm revisiting the process map and trying to redesign by incorporating Andy's and others comments I received.

If you have any comments / suggestions, you are always welcome.
 
J

JaneB

#35
#35
Sorry if I misunderstood you, Makrab.

:topic:
Makrab said:
In my second post, I was only trying to justify my side.
Click to expand...
Yes, that came across. The acceptance of the criticism didn't (but you've explained that, so don't worry!) :tg:

It's a very common response, isn't it, that one of justifying? Please note, I am not picking on you in particular, I'm musing aloud about how common it is. Almost a habitual pattern in many.

Person 1: X isn't right/is wrong/could be better/ doesn't .....
Person 2: I did X because/it's like that because....

One issue is that it tends to tie us to defending what is, what has been done, rather than putting the focus onto the criticism.
 
Q

qualitymanager

#36
#36
Re: Scope of a "processes"?

JaneB said:
Be clear: You didn't refer to a 'quality management system' - you said 'system'.

...
Click to expand...
I had expected that any reader would have recognized that within this "ISO 9001 - Quality Management Systems Standard" sub-forum (and within the specific context of this thread) the reference to a "system" would have been interpreted to mean "QMS".

I will do my best to remember to use the term "QMS" (I trust the acronym is acceptable) to avoid ambiguity in the future.
 
M

Makrab

Involved In Discussions
#37
#37
JaneB said:
It's a very common response, isn't it, that one of justifying? Please note, I am not picking on you in particular, I'm musing aloud about how common it is. Almost a habitual pattern in many.

Person 1: X isn't right/is wrong/could be better/ doesn't .....
Person 2: I did X because/it's like that because....

One issue is that it tends to tie us to defending what is, what has been done, rather than putting the focus onto the criticism.
Click to expand...
:D Uncommon response!!!

Revised my process map and attached for your comments...!!!
 

Attachments

J

jelly1921

Quite Involved in Discussions
#38
#38
Makrab:

I downloaded your attachments, they are pretty good. Could you tell me how you did them? Using Microsoft Word? I gues not.
 
J

jelly1921

Quite Involved in Discussions
#40
#40
Thank Makrab for informing me. The map is colorful, I enjoy to look at it.

Regarding to the question discussed, there several places mentioned about processes in ISO 9001, such as development, purchasing, manufacturing, after-sale service, management review, various reviews, non-conforming control... These processes should be esablished. ONE process is obviously not conforming to the standard's requriements.
 
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